English language question

[Dan Pop]

You are absolutely correct. If Jacob does not mind being
inconsistent, he can use "uninitialised". But if he uses
"initialisation" or "initialised" he is using terms not defined in the
standard, not by BSI, ANSI, or ISO.

6.7.8 of the current standard defines "initialization". It does not
define "initialisation", even if, according to you, they mean the same
thing in English.

If they mean the same thing, then the definition of one word applies to
the other.

You of all people should know that the standard says exactly what it
literally says, no more and no less.

Indeed. However, I have enough brain cells to be able to tell the
difference between semantic issues and spelling issues. It is sheer
stupidity to insist that the *only* spelling that should be used in a C
language context is the one used by the C standard.

I don't use the American spelling (I've learned English in Europe), yet
no one complained (until now ;-) about not being able to understand my
posts because my spelling doesn't match the one used by the C standard.

Dan

 

[Richard Bos]

I'm a Brit moi-meme, but it's only realism to recognize that the
"English" that constitutes an international language in the
21st century is primarily American English.

How do you explain, then, that I learned English, not USAnian?

Richard

 

[Andrew]

However Canadians are naturally confused, being simultaneously
attacked from childhood on all spelling fronts by intolerant
adjacent spellmeisters. This will not be resolved until we
acheive Canadian hegemony. (and then we have to worry about
Quebec).

Personally, I keep hope that they'll finally separate and we'll be rid
of them. So long as they take their politicians with them.

Unfortunately, if they separate, Quebec still wants the rest of Canada
to foot their bills.

Even more unfortunately, this is entirely off-topic, so I'll stop now.

 

[Alan Balmer]

The english word "Initialized" exists. (Cambridge dictionary finds it).
The word "Uninitialized" doesn't seem to exist, and no dictionary
has it. I am using that word very often in my tutorial of the C language
with

"uninitialized memory".

Word flags this as a spelling error and tells me that the correct spelling
is

"uninitialised" with s
and NOT
"uninitialized" with z.

Can anyone here tell me what word should be used in correct english?

Whichever way you like - it's a British/USA difference which most
people won't worry about. Personally, I spell it both ways, though
usually not in the same document ;-)

If you look under the tools->language menu in Word, you'll find at
least a dozen varieties of "English" to choose from.

 

[Alan Balmer]

[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -

I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.

 

[Joona I Palaste]

[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -

I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.

I am unaware of the difference between ancient and modern French
pronunciations, but I am annoyed by English-speakers trying to
pronounce German words like they were English. For example "Stein"
should be pronounced to rhyme with "mine", not with "spleen" like some
native English speakers insist on pronouncing it. I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.

 

[Stephen Sprunk]

I am unaware of the difference between ancient and modern French
pronunciations, but I am annoyed by English-speakers trying to
pronounce German words like they were English. For example "Stein"
should be pronounced to rhyme with "mine", not with "spleen" like some
native English speakers insist on pronouncing it. I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.

English-only speakers should not be expected to know the German rules for
pronouncing ei vs. ie. In various English words both combinations can be
pronounced both ways, and the origin of words is so muddied that most
English speakers just memorize the pronunciation for each word instead of
determining its origin and trying to apply the rules for that language (as
if we can keep track of the rules of dozens of languages we borrow words
from).

S

 

[Hamish Reid]

[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -

I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.

*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.

This has been happening for 15 years now. It never ceases to amaze me.

Hamish

 

[Alan Balmer]

[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -

I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.

I am unaware of the difference between ancient and modern French
pronunciations, but I am annoyed by English-speakers trying to
pronounce German words like they were English. For example "Stein"
should be pronounced to rhyme with "mine", not with "spleen" like some
native English speakers insist on pronouncing it.

Actually, I've never heard the "spleen" pronunciation, but you've
missed the point. When an English-speaker says "Give me a stein of
beer", he's not speaking German, he's speaking English, and German
rules of pronunciation have no bearing on the matter.

I know it ruins a
good joke based on a brand of baked beans, but I care more about
correct pronunciation than one silly joke.

Tell us the joke?

 

[Stephen Sprunk]

[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -

I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

Nobody who uses valet service, or orders a fillet of fish, is under
the illusion that they're speaking French. In fact, you'd probably
find few US citizens who could tell you anything about "modern French"
pronunciation, and even fewer who could distinguish it from "ancient
French" pronunciation.

*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.

This has been happening for 15 years now. It never ceases to amaze me.

Similarly, here in Texas most people will properly pronounce bois d'arc as
"bwah-dark" and know that's because the name is French, but that's just one
of thousands of words that we just memorize and move on without learning
_why_ the French pronounce things strangely, and we still consider the term
(not the individual parts) to be an English word of French origin. Ditto
with Spanish, German, and other words.

There's lots of roads and towns here that have pronunciations which are
neither English nor Spanish, but settled somewhere in between as the
population changed over time. We English speakers are pretty sloppy when we
import words; the more a foreign word is used, the more its pronunciation
alters from the original, until one day it's barely recognizable as a
cognate.

S

 

[Joona I Palaste]

Tell us the joke?

"Heinz meanz beanz".

 

[Rich Gibbs]

Hamish Reid said the following, on 06/22/04 13:52:

[It's ironic that American English seems to suffer much more from
French corruption these days. It always tickles me when I hear
Americans pronounce words such as 'valet', 'fillet' and 'herb' as
if they were modern French -

I'm not sure what you mean. I (and everyone I know) pronounce these
words as if they were American English, which they are, regardless of
their origin.

[snip]

*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why herb is
pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here (California), I've
been told by native Californian-English speakers it's because they're
French words and should be pronounced as such.

This has been happening for 15 years now. It never ceases to amaze me.

In the case of 'fillet', I suspect it results because most Americans
born before about 1960 or so probably heard the word first only as part
of 'filet mignon' (which of course is French), and have just carried
over the pronunciation. (Actually, you will probably notice that many
menus spell the word with one 'l', though 'fillet' is a perfectly proper
American English word.)

The pronunciation of 'herb' without the 'h' is not so common in most of
the US (the part not on either the East or West Coast).

Having lived and worked in Britain for a number of years, I have to say
that I was also amused by the insistence of Britons (even the BBC
presenters, who should have known better) on pronouncing the name of the
large city in eastern Missouri, on the Mississippi River, as "St.
Louie". Anyone who lives there will tell you the name of the place is
pronounced "Saint Lewis". I will not describe how the natives of
Havre de Grace, Maryland, pronounce the name of their town, to spare the
sensibilities of French readers.

Was it Shaw or Wilde that used the line, "two countries divided by a
common language" ? ;-)

 

[Rich Gibbs]

Dan Pop said the following, on 06/21/04 08:29:

Think what happened if dictionaries attempted to handle all the possible
prefixes for all the words accepting them. Many obvious cases are
deliberately omitted.

My (printed) _American Heritage Dictionary_ just lists the most common
words formed with the 'un' prefix, in small type in the page footers.
As Dan suggests, including full entries for all of them would consume an
enormous amount of space to no real purpose, since the meanings are obvious.

 

[Joe Wright]

How do you explain, then, that I learned English, not USAnian?

Your teacher didn't like Americans? Couldn't find a book on USAnian?
Didn't appreciate a great difference (Is there a great difference)?
Perhaps the sound of it. People from Oxford sound more delightful to
the refined Dutch ear than people from New York (I agree actually)?

I am curious why you, Richard Bos of Holland, choose to deprecate
nearly all things American in favour of things English. It's not
important to me at all. I'm just curious.

Annecdotally, some of the worst English I've ever heard was in
England and some of the best in Holland.

 

[Joe Wright]

If they mean the same thing, then the definition of one word applies to
the other.




Indeed. However, I have enough brain cells to be able to tell the
difference between semantic issues and spelling issues. It is sheer
stupidity to insist that the *only* spelling that should be used in a C
language context is the one used by the C standard.

I don't use the American spelling (I've learned English in Europe), yet
no one complained (until now ;-) about not being able to understand my
posts because my spelling doesn't match the one used by the C standard.

Your command of English is superb, no matter where you learned it.
You beat most of us at it, hands down. Now, about Romanian?

 

[CBFalconer]

.... snip ...

*Every time* I (as a Briton living in the US) have asked why
herb is pronounced "erb", or fillet as "fill-eh" out here
(California), I've been told by native Californian-English
speakers it's because they're French words and should be
pronounced as such.

Nah, it's because 'erbert was a Cockney. Calais, Maine, is
pronounced to rhyme with Dallas (or Maria Callas). Note the
prevalence of C in these facts.

 

[Joe Wright]

"Heinz meanz beanz".

That's a stretch. Nobody says "Heenz". Do remember that the rule in
English is usage. The famous American composer and conducter Leonard
Bernstein pronounced his own name "Bernsteen". Go figure.

 

[J. J. Farrell]

"Heinz meanz beanz".

Now I'm totally confused. In Britain, that would be said as "Hines
means beans" - and was sung that way as an advertising jingle. Isn't
that more or less the correct pronunciation of the vowels if we treat
"Heinz" as a German word? I think Heinz is an American company - are
you saying that the correct American pronunciation is "Heans"?

 

[CBFalconer]

.... snip ...

Having lived and worked in Britain for a number of years, I have
to say that I was also amused by the insistence of Britons (even
the BBC presenters, who should have known better) on pronouncing
the name of the large city in eastern Missouri, on the Mississippi
River, as "St. Louie". Anyone who lives there will tell you the
name of the place is pronounced "Saint Lewis". I will not

.... snip ...

I think you will find that is a relatively recent affectation. I
recall a musical, circa 1945, (I think it was 'State Fair') where
some of the principle songs were 'The Trolley Song' and 'Meet me
in St Louis, Louie'. From which I conclude that the Lewis
prononciation was not in effect, or at least not universal, then.

 

[Rich Gibbs]

CBFalconer said the following, on 06/22/04 23:21:

Rich Gibbs wrote:

.... snip ...


.... snip ...

I think you will find that is a relatively recent affectation. I
recall a musical, circa 1945, (I think it was 'State Fair') where
some of the principle songs were 'The Trolley Song' and 'Meet me
in St Louis, Louie'. From which I conclude that the Lewis
prononciation was not in effect, or at least not universal, then.

I do remember "State Fair", too -- but the pronunciation in the songs
was made, I think, for humorous effect. I was actually born in
Missouri, and one side of the family has lived in the St. Louis area for
~150 years, so I feel reasonably confident that the Saint Lewis
pronunciation goes back for a fair while, at least as these things are
reckoned in the US. ;-)