Larry Wall & Cults

J

jmfbahciv

They are not DOS commands, thay are CPM commands that just happened
to report for duty in redmondia.


All of them where in the 4.x monitir I used. many of the 427 source file
are on Tim's site, so you can have a look in COMTAB and see.

huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L
to get directories? And to print a file on the line printer
required the PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR

Sigh! Substitute those underscores with backarrows.

The point is still that these commands were "created" not
by one OS but by the conglomerate of future bit gods who
were yakking at each other and moving from one OS project
to another OS' project. Back then there were only a handful
of people who were doing this work.

Are we suffering from the demise of the thingies we used to
call DECUS when the workers got together instead of the PHBs
and marketeers?

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
 
A

Alan J. Flavell

Are we suffering from the demise of the thingies we used to
call DECUS when the workers got together instead of the PHBs
and marketeers?

We certainly are. Self-help meetings of techies have always been
a step-child as far as manglement are concerned. I could list a few
that I've been involved in over the years, that have been chipped away
bit by bit by cost-paring management until they finally lost critical
mass.

But we have the 'net, so it's not all bad.
 
P

Paul F. Dietz

CBFalconer said:
I know nothing about those stories, but it seems reasonable to me
that the boosters would have been designed to be transportable by
railroad, which ties their dimensions to track gauge.

That's the nature of urban legends -- they seem reasonable.

Paul
 
A

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

That was my next question :). How did you manage?

the first i remember was two story with steep roof. i got to demolish
the brick chimmny in the middle of the house... and remove the bricks
.... lifting the house for the timbers to go under and move, there
wouldn't be anything to support the chimney. when the house came to
the wires, i went up thru the hole in the roof where the chimney had
been; walk out to the edge and gather the wires and lift them above
the peek ... and walk with them as the house moved under the wires. i
was 12. several years later, one of my uncles fell off the roof of a
house being moved and died.
 
C

Coby Beck

Rupert Pigott said:
Larry said:
Rupert Pigott wrote:
[SNIP]

http://www.ae.utexas.edu/~lehmanj/ethics/srb.htm

"Competition for the SRB Contract"

"Four companies bid for the contract to design and manufacture the solid
rocket boosters (SRBs). Aerojet Solid bid the program at $655 million,
United Technologies at $710 million, Morton Thiokol at $710 million, and
Lockheed at $714 million. All the bids were relatively similar in both
price and technology. Based on cost, the NASA advisory panel recommended
that the contract be awarded to Aerojet; they believed that money could
be saved without sacrificing technical quality by choosing the lowest
bid. NASA administrator Dr. James Fletcher overruled this recommendation

[SNIP]

Even if hypothetically superior Aerojet boosters were used I would
bet a life's salary that mismanagement would nail them in the end...

You will never understand past mistakes with an attitude like that.."Oh
well, who knows? It could have been worse!"
Consider this : If the tables were turned and an Aerojet booster
exploded in the sky I'll bet the armchair QBs would be asking why
were Aerojet chosen over Morton-Thiokol who had more experience of
building large solid-fuel rockets.

And there would have been a clear answer: they had the lowest bid and a
committee responsible for technical evaluation approved them.
 
R

Rupert Pigott

Coby said:
Larry said:
Rupert Pigott wrote:
[SNIP]


http://www.ae.utexas.edu/~lehmanj/ethics/srb.htm

"Competition for the SRB Contract"

"Four companies bid for the contract to design and manufacture the solid
rocket boosters (SRBs). Aerojet Solid bid the program at $655 million,
United Technologies at $710 million, Morton Thiokol at $710 million, and
Lockheed at $714 million. All the bids were relatively similar in both
price and technology. Based on cost, the NASA advisory panel recommended
that the contract be awarded to Aerojet; they believed that money could
be saved without sacrificing technical quality by choosing the lowest
bid. NASA administrator Dr. James Fletcher overruled this recommendation

[SNIP]

Even if hypothetically superior Aerojet boosters were used I would
bet a life's salary that mismanagement would nail them in the end...


You will never understand past mistakes with an attitude like that.."Oh
well, who knows? It could have been worse!"

That's not it at all : It's a recognition of the sickness in the
safety culture that existed.
And there would have been a clear answer: they had the lowest bid and a
committee responsible for technical evaluation approved them.

You would get accusations that the tech.eval was approving them
to cut corners in the budget... AFAICT MT had more experience
of building that kind of gadget at the time.

Don't get me wrong : M-T & NASA fucked up, I'm not defending
them. I'm just a bit wary of pinning it on the choice of maker
when in fact it seems to be a cultural sickness that eventually
led to a *predictable* and *preventable* catastrophic failure.


Cheers,
Rupert
 
P

Paul Repacholi

huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
directories? And to print a file on the line printer required the
PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR

My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...

Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
 
J

John W. Kennedy

Rupert said:
I would hope that Morton Thiokol's experience at building a diverse
range of rockets might have been a factor in the decision too.

I would hope so too, but that isn't how it happened. In history as it
actually went, the Morton-Thiokol design came in a distant fourth, and
the White House ordered NASA to try again, but this time come up with
the "right" answer.
 
J

Joe Pfeiffer

Rupert Pigott said:

However, it would certainly not have failed at the segment joints.

The more I read sci.space.tech the more convinced I am that the whole
shuttle concept was fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Putting
the orbiter next to (rather than on top of) the huge tank of high
explosive is not a good idea. Reentry from orbit is not the same as
flying an airplane; ablative heat shields work and work well.
 
R

Rupert Pigott

Joe said:
However, it would certainly not have failed at the segment joints.#

Indeed, it could have failed in a way entirely unique to itself... :)

The O-Ring thing had been identified, was preventable and should have
been prevented. Sure, perhaps the design did suck, but the point is
the whole disaster was trivially avoidable if the people running the
show were willing to grasp the nettle.
The more I read sci.space.tech the more convinced I am that the whole
shuttle concept was fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Putting
the orbiter next to (rather than on top of) the huge tank of high
explosive is not a good idea. Reentry from orbit is not the same as
flying an airplane; ablative heat shields work and work well.

It does seem silly, but it is a glorious piece of brute force design
in the face of impossible odds none the less.

Cheers,
Rupert
 
J

John Thingstad

However, it would certainly not have failed at the segment joints.

The more I read sci.space.tech the more convinced I am that the whole
shuttle concept was fundamentally flawed from the beginnin g.Putting
the orbiter next to (rather than on top of) the huge tank of high
explosive is not a good idea. Reentry from orbit is not the same as
flying an airplane; ablative heat shields work and work well.

I second that.
Making a space veicle look like a plane is a lame idea.
It makes launch more complicated because the lift of the wings
gives force and this has to be continously compenated for by rotating the
veicle.
(Does "roger, roll" ring a bell)
During reentry the wing surfaces and other protruding objects adds to the
heat signature
and adds to the risc. (I think the Columia disaster illustrates this.)
The only time the plane shape makes sense is for the last 4 last minutes
of a
mission. For this I think parachutes would be a better option.
In short it adds risk for very little gain.
The real reason NASA thought a plane would be great is because all
the astronaughts are previous test pilots. And, well, they like planes.
Ideally a space reentry veicle should look as much as a drop as possible
and should enter with the butt end. (Minimum air drag.)
Instead of fighting nature they should be using it..
This minimizes risc.
 
P

Paul F. Dietz

Rupert said:
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

Indeed, it could have failed in a way entirely unique to itself... :)

For example, it would have been more difficult to cast, so it could
have been more prone to catastrophic failures due to casting errors
(voids in the grain, poor bonding of the grain to the casing, etc.)

The safer answer would have been liquid boosters, but they cost more.

The underlying problem was that the shuttle never made economic sense
(fraudulent projections of high flight rates notwithstanding.)

Followup to sci.space.policy.

Paul
 
N

Nick Landsberg

Rupert Pigott wrote:

[SNIP]
Indeed, it could have failed in a way entirely unique to itself... :)

The O-Ring thing had been identified, was preventable and should have
been prevented. Sure, perhaps the design did suck, but the point is
the whole disaster was trivially avoidable if the people running the
show were willing to grasp the nettle.

Since we're so far off-topic here anyway ...

It has been so many years since the Challenger disaster
that memory fades (especially at my age), so bear with
me if a misremember something.

As I recall, the particular launch happened during
an unusual cold spell in Florida. I also recall
that the investigation uncovered strong recommendations
by several senior engineers, prior to launch, that the launch
should be postponed because the system (shuttle and boosters)
had never been launched during those kinds of
weather conditions. (It could very well be that they
might have pointed out the O-rings specifically,
but I don't recall.) Some managementcritter
at some level (probably in NASA) ignored or overruled
those recommendations. I can only conjecture that
this was because that the prevailing culture (in most
corporations, then and now) is "we have to meet
our schedules."

The managmentcritters' attitude can be
summarized by:
- "If *we* don't meet *our* schedules, it's my butt on the
line." (The regal "we" and "our" purposely emphasized.)
- "If we meet our schedules and **** up, it's someone
else's butt on the line."

NPL

P.S. - I make no claim that the design was good,
bad, or indifferent. It is outside my area of expertise.
I *do* know, from personal experience, that many
technically sound recommendations are overruled by management,
for whatever reasons. The root cause could well
have been in the choice of Morton-Thiokol, I don't
know. If my recollections above are correct, tho,
the "proximate cause" was launching the shuttle at all
given the objections of the engineers.
 
B

Brian {Hamilton Kelly}

All right. Now I'm mystified. Why did they have to borrow code
from Unix? They already had VMS. ISTM, VMS had all of the
above.

VMS (originally) most decidedly did NOT have either TCP/IP or NFS.
Indeed, it took many years before DEC [sorry, by then it was already
d|i|g|i|t|a|l] had a TCP/IP stack available for VMS --- the dreaded heap
of quivering jelly created by the Eunice idiots.

Before that, people who needed TCP/IP on a Vax used various third-party
solutions, such as the implementations from Carnegie-Mellon (CMU) or
Wollongong universities. Then, of course, there was what many regarded
as the best TCP/IP stack for VMS, MultiNet from TGV (Two Guys and a VAX).
That product also included a working NFS implementation.
 
B

Brian {Hamilton Kelly}

[Persian siege of Paphos, 452BC]
Even some two-and-a-half-centuries later, one can still see that the
earth was burnt by that firing, which amazes me.

s/centuries/millennia/

Well, it _was_ very late at night when I wrote that.
 
J

John W. Kennedy

Nick said:
The managmentcritters' attitude can be
summarized by:
- "If *we* don't meet *our* schedules, it's my butt on the
line." (The regal "we" and "our" purposely emphasized.)
- "If we meet our schedules and **** up, it's someone
else's butt on the line."

The actual words were (approximately), "Take off your engineering hat
and put on your management hat."

In a just society, he would have received the death penalty.

--
John W. Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)
 
R

Rob Warnock

+---------------
| (e-mail address removed) writes:
| > huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
| > directories? And to print a file on the line printer required the
| > PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
|
| My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...
| Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.
+---------------

Yes, but... Wasn't COMPIL (at least a simple for of it) introduced
before or sometime during 4S72? We didn't switch from 4.x to 5.x until
5.02d (or so) IIRC, and I *thought* we used COMPIL earlier than that.
[But brain rot gets us all in the end...]


-Rob
 
J

jmfbahciv

+---------------
| (e-mail address removed) writes:
| > huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
| > directories? And to print a file on the line printer required the
| > PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
|
| My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...
| Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.
+---------------

Yes, but... Wasn't COMPIL (at least a simple for of it) introduced
before or sometime during 4S72? We didn't switch from 4.x to 5.x until
5.02d (or so) IIRC, and I *thought* we used COMPIL earlier than that.
[But brain rot gets us all in the end...]

There was a program COMPIL but you had to say

R COMPIL
FOO.REL_FOO.FOR

(The typo routine in my head just told me I goofed but I don't see it.)

but couldn't say

COMPIL FOO.FOR

I think (and only John Everett can say for sure) that what we
called compile-class commands came with the 5-series monitor.
I wasn't working for DEC then and had no idea about development
evolutions of code and features.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
 
J

jmfbahciv

My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...

Whew! Oh, good. At least I'm not complete nuts. I don't
good that your brain has rot but good that my brain didn't.
Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.

Well, I always got confused with the lingo, too. There was
the program COMPIL and then there were the compile-class
commands which had a little something to do with COMPIL
but not really. I never did sort out the lingo.

The program COMPIL picked up where and which compiler would
get GETSEGed into your address space to compile your the
program specification you handed it. If your file had a
non-standard extension, e.g., FOO.BAR, COMPIL had a
heirarchal list of which compiler to choose to process
the contents of FOO.BAR. I always liked to feed a FORTRAN
program to COBOL and visa versa just to see if I wreak any
havoc to the compiler and the monitor.

/BAH



Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
 

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