Learning C++

[Ian Collins]

I'm using Linux -- Fedora 12 -- but I don't think it is very
good. It hangs on me fairly often -- it seems to have a
problem with extensive use of ssh -- and I have to reboot.
I guess OpenSolaris is better, but Sun is going out of
business and has to be bought out.

Unfortunate FUD.

I don't like the phrase "drive the projects." That sounds like
the tyrannical Apple again. Whether it's politically or business
wise, kind/thoughtful leadership is hard to find.

Do you drive your car? Or do you use kind/thoughtful leadership?

 

[tanix]

Pretty much everything in the web stack: Apache, MySQL/PostgreSQL, PHP,
your open source OS of choice and MediaWiki to document it.

Well, I mean in terms of documentation.
Yes, there are plenty of good open source projects.
No question about it.

But what I mean is a central issue that is the same for open source
or commercial sw and that is documentation. Most of the code I had
to deal with is not only not sufficiently commented to make it easy
for someone to read it like a news article, but not documented at
all.

Also, user documentation is horrible in most cases.

One example comes to mind is Apache log4j - the logging system
for Java. That thing looked like a disaster to me. It was a while
back and I do not recall the specifics at the moment, but the
"learning curve" was something astronomical. You'd have to literally
study a bible sized pile of information that is pretty much a set
of disassociated ideas, poorly interlinked and and things like that.

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[tanix]

Not to mention gecko and webkit... at least second best to the closed-
source alternatives, if not better. Drupal is good enough for
whitehouse.gov.

And then there's cmake, and so many great code libraries are published
under non-restrictive (LGPL-like) open-source licences (qt, boost,
zlib, png, the list goes on and on).

Plus, many of the leading software architecture tools offer both
commercial and open-source licenses, and some of the commercial tools
are built on open-source tools -- for example ArgoUML / Poseidon.

In other words, I don't see how there's any way anyone _hasn't_ seen,
used, or at least benefited unknowingly from some "reasonably good
open source projects" unless they've been living under a rock for the
last 20 years.

Well, no question, I did benefit "unknowingly" from plenty of
open source projects. The most noticeable to me in terms of doing
what I need to do every day is Kate editor. That thing is beautiful.

Right now I am getting into Lucene search engine.
Looked at it for a few minutes and was pleasantly surprised
to see the well documented sources and nice Javadoc.
You could not expect anything better even in commercial projects.
Someone is working on it right now so we'll have a chance to see
some results.

But documentation argument still stands in my mind.

My point was presented before and that is:
you should be able to read someone elses code as you read a news
article and should be able to understand what is going on within
seconds. That means well documented sources and simple and clear
code structure, uncluttered with all the unnecessary complications
that produce lil or no benefit overall.

-- Nick

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[tanix]

In an ideal world you wouldn't have to go to extremes, but
this is not an ideal world.

Understood.
But let us even attempt to look at the ways to make it more
workable. I think people just accepted the capitalist model
as some kind of ultimate reality, while paying lil or no
attention to the fact that that model eventually resulted
in what we have and that is devastation and rootless exploitation
of anyting that moves or does not.

Times have changed.
The game is different now.
Totally different.

Time for a wakeup call.

Given the pressures that
politicians face from their people to do something to help
them out of their difficult circumstances, the politicians
of countries like China and Russia will throw even large
companies like Microsoft under the bus when it comes to
issues of software piracy.

Good. I fully support that. Except I do not think what you
are saying is true.

Companies like Microsoft have been probably the biggest
disaster. Because the only thing they are interested in
is maximization of the rate of sucking.

At this very moment I am having an issue of my new box
totally locking up. My suspicion it is an OS issue.
The problem is I am working on XP and that thing is basically
abandoned. Microsoft is not likely to move a finger to fix
the problem because they are interested in making me pay
again and again and again. For the same thing.

That is why I fully support the open source approach
regardless of how "imperfect" it is, and it is getting to
be quite competitive with commercial version.
In fact, by this time, I basically have everything I need
in the open source version. What is left is more or less
"would be nice to have".

As soon as I see one of my major "would be nice to have"
implemented, I'll HAPPILY say "good buy" to Microsoft,
and add "thanks God. What a hell that was! What a nightmare!"

The on line, free model works
out best I think since control over the software is
maintained by the authors and because its free it spreads
more quickly. It is exactly what you want from a business
model perspective. Garage sales are popular where I'm
from. This is 100 times better than a garage sale because
everything is free. People need quality software that
is free just like they need decent but cheap stuff at
garage sales.

I do not agree with this "free code" idea.

Would you like to do some work for someone and not get a
piece of bread on your table?

I think this isssue is LONG due to be resolved.
We just need to start looking at it and pass our ideas
and words to politicians, employees and to each other.

With the brains of software guys I BET you there is a reasonable
solution that will allow everyone to get a benefit of it
at a MUCH more attractive prices and, at the same time,
to assure that people that do some crative work do get taken
care of. For one thing, they'll have more time to document
their code and hopefully write a better user documentation.
Because they know they are going to get paid and not merely
waste their lives away doing something for nothing.

There is no free cheese.

Brian Wood
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651) 251-9384

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[gwowen]

I think closed source software is generally with some sort
of company that is seeking to make a profit from their
investment in creating the software.  

Some of it is certainly. Where the software *is* the product --
Oracle or Quicken or Microsoft -- its often very good indeed. Where
the software is secondary -- say software written by a hardware
manufacturer to interface with their new Gizmo9000, or the firmware on
a cheap DVD player, (or Lotus Notes ), it's frequently terrible.

The Darwinian pressure on software companies (as opposed to companies
who make software but for whom its not their primary product) kills
many producers of bad software. Sadly, there are often two springing
up to take their place.

PS: A traffic warden is a meter maid.
PPS: That Rosenbloom article was just awful.

 

[gwowen]

Would you like to do some work for someone and not get a
piece of bread on your table?

I frequently don't mind, especially if my unremunerated work has some
sort of societal benefit. I have sufficient bread. The only
criterion is that I get to pick and choose what work I do.

Have you never helped a stranger without thought of remuneration or
reciprocation?

It's not a big leap from their to the Open Source culture, especially
if you're the sort of person who finds programming to be enjoyable.

 

[Andrew Poelstra]

I frequently don't mind, especially if my unremunerated work has some
sort of societal benefit. I have sufficient bread. The only
criterion is that I get to pick and choose what work I do.

Have you never helped a stranger without thought of remuneration or
reciprocation?

It's not a big leap from their to the Open Source culture, especially
if you're the sort of person who finds programming to be enjoyable.

For a lot of open source programmers, they're writing code for their
own use, and given that they have zero to no interest in marketing or
sales, make it freely available since they wouldn't be making money
anyway. (Nor do they need the money, if they're volunteer coding.)

 

[Andrew Poelstra]

I'm using Linux -- Fedora 12 -- but I don't think it is very
good. It hangs on me fairly often -- it seems to have a
problem with extensive use of ssh -- and I have to reboot.
I guess OpenSolaris is better, but Sun is going out of
business and has to be bought out.

I'm using the same thing, and I've left SSH open without rebooting
for several days at a time. And if I stay within the appropriate
network timeouts, I can even suspend/resume my laptop with SSH open
and keep going where I left off.

My server is running CentOS something (I don't remember; I haven't
rebooted or looked at the thing in months), and I'm SSH'd into
there now typing this message.

Gcc isn't much to write home about.

Perhaps not, but gcc + make + git is.

 

[Rui Maciel]

Would you like to do some work for someone and not get a
piece of bread on your table?

There are quite a lot of people involved in voluntary work and they don't see
any problem with that. Do you perceive that to be a problem?

I think this isssue is LONG due to be resolved.
We just need to start looking at it and pass our ideas
and words to politicians, employees and to each other.

What issue? Voluntary work?

With the brains of software guys I BET you there is a reasonable
solution that will allow everyone to get a benefit of it
at a MUCH more attractive prices and, at the same time,
to assure that people that do some crative work do get taken
care of. For one thing, they'll have more time to document
their code and hopefully write a better user documentation.
Because they know they are going to get paid and not merely
waste their lives away doing something for nothing.

Your statement is very odd. What exactly do you see as "doing something for
nothing" and why exactly do you believe that a problem?

There is no free cheese.

Unless the cheese makers actually give it away for free, willingly and
intentionally.


Rui Maciel

 

[gwowen]

There is no free cheese.

What if we could give someone our cheese without losing the cheese
ourselves?

X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01

....Ahem...

 

[Rui Maciel]

I'm using Linux -- Fedora 12 -- but I don't think it is very
good. It hangs on me fairly often -- it seems to have a
problem with extensive use of ssh -- and I have to reboot.
I guess OpenSolaris is better, but Sun is going out of
business and has to be bought out.

That is very weird. I've been using linux practically exclusively, I believe,
since 2002 and I never experienced any hang whatsoever, and that includes the long
forgotten times of "we need to manually run a shell script to get a network
connection going", where every distro was a bit flimsy. It's hard to believe that
a distro release from a few months ago, particularly from a main distribution such
as Fedora, is nowadays working worse than what was being slapped together by some
dude 8 years ago.

Gcc isn't much to write home about.

How come?




Rui Maciel

 

[Balog Pal]

There is no free cheese.

Unless the cheese makers actually give it away for free, willingly and
intentionally.

Those acitions do not make it free. Unless it fell down from heaven in the
first place.

Strange to see that narrowed down thinking in a programmer community,
thought global/system-wide observartion should be the norm :-/

 

[Andrew Poelstra]

Those acitions do not make it free. Unless it fell down from heaven in the
first place.

Arguably, hard work and cows do indeed fall down from heaven, albeit
indirectly.

Strange to see that narrowed down thinking in a programmer community,
thought global/system-wide observartion should be the norm :-/

Code, on the other hand, consists of _ideas_, and it is more than
valid to consider ideas to be free, especially if their originator
has made them open source.

 

[Balog Pal]

Arguably, hard work and cows do indeed fall down from heaven, albeit
indirectly.

And that indirection brings in the cost too. Canceling 'free'.

Code, on the other hand, consists of _ideas_, and it is more than
valid to consider ideas to be free, especially if their originator
has made them open source.

Software may bne based on ideas, but creating it involves a big deal of hard
work. When we get to telephatic interfaces and the "software == idea", you
may call it free, not before that. (I meant to state the truth -- in
another sense you're free to claim whatever falseness or mince words for
misleading. )

 

[tanix]

For a lot of open source programmers, they're writing code for their
own use, and given that they have zero to no interest in marketing or
sales, make it freely available since they wouldn't be making money
anyway. (Nor do they need the money, if they're volunteer coding.)

Sorry, but I have to plug in into this one.

Yes, understood. They are kinda write it for "their own use".
But...

There is a big but.
The thing is we are talking about, which means we know about
their code somehow. So they did release something somewhere.

So...

The question becomes: if you write some code, do you love yourself
enough to make it beautiful?

Do you want OTHERS to be able to understand what you did?
Do you want your creation to live on?
Do you think you have spent all this time and it is worth
something, not in terms of "money", but in terms of LIFE?
Do you LOVE what you are doing?

Well, in case you do, then...

Then make sure you write the cream of the crop.
Make sure your creation lives on, and to do that,
take all the time necessary to DOCUMENT your creation
so others can undestand it.

Otherwise...

Well, otherwise you just wasted some of your life
for no good reason.

That means you do not respect your own creation well enough
to make sure it lives on.

Everything you do from now on counts.
Every effort you make to create something counts.
Every bit you contribute counts.

Forget about the usual habit of this ego-centric
"holier than thou" or "I could care less if you can understand
my latest and greatest creation".

Finished.
Bas.
That trip is over.
We are in a new game now.

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[Brian]

I'm using the same thing, and I've left SSH open without rebooting
for several days at a time. And if I stay within the appropriate
network timeouts, I can even suspend/resume my laptop with SSH open
and keep going where I left off.

My server is running CentOS something (I don't remember; I haven't
rebooted or looked at the thing in months), and I'm SSH'd into
there now typing this message.

It happens mostly when I'm using ssh sessions to two or
three different computers. The mouse freezes and there's
no response to keyboard input. I haven't tried ssh'ing
into the machine to see if that is still possible. At
that point I don't really care and just reboot it. It
is a development machine and although apache is running
it isn't serving many web pages. The machine has a gig
of ram.


Brian Wood
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384

 

[tanix]

There are quite a lot of people involved in voluntary work and they don't see
any problem with that.

GOOD.

I invite ANYONE to participate in a project I know is significant.
Be my guest.
You know how to find me, right?

Do you perceive that to be a problem?

Nope. I don't.
I just wish I find a few people to help out with the project
and that project is something that improves the information
quality. That is all I am willing to say about it.
Otherwise, it will be some stoopid self-promotion.
Look around and see if you can find it.
If you can, and if it turns you on enough,
there is PLENTY of work to be done,
and I'll do my best to make sure it is not just a waste
of your energy.

What issue? Voluntary work?

If you did not strip the context, I could probably answer it
precisely. :--}

I suggest you don't strip the context.

Ok, one of issues is this:

If I do some work, it is worth something, no matter who thinks
what. Unless I am corrupt of course and my motives are simply
to pretend I did something just to gain some benefit.

And if I am willing to create something and I am willing to
make it available to others, then we need to make sure that
people that contribute are not simply thrown into a garbage
can and are not told: well, too bad if there is no one who
is willing to pay you for it. If you can not create something
we can have a ride on, then just die like a dog.

Clear enough?

Cause THAT model is not going to work from now on.
In fact, that model is going to be totally destroyed.
Destroyed from within.
It will simply fall on itself.

The times of maximization of the rate of sucking
of the blood of many by the few
are over.

It is a totally different game now.

Your statement is very odd. What exactly do you see as "doing something for
nothing" and why exactly do you believe that a problem?

I mean when you do some work, that, by itself, justifies your
existance, and the basics of that existance is food, clothes,
and shelter as far as psysical matter goes. You should not be
simply abandoned without your BASIC needs covered.

The problem I see in "free software" is people take it for granted
and are not willing to pay even a few bux to support the authors
of the software they are using. And it is running rampant.

Because they are peddled this idea of "free coke", they think:
well, if there is a "free coke", there must be a "free software".

Unless the cheese makers actually give it away for free, willingly and
intentionally.

Are you so naive?

"The only free chese is in the mouse trap".

Ever heard?

Rui Maciel

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[tanix]

Arguably, hard work and cows do indeed fall down from heaven, albeit
indirectly.


Code, on the other hand, consists of _ideas_,

Translated into and made manifest by WORK,
and some of the harderst work there is,
at least according to people that have done some research
on this.

and it is more than
valid to consider ideas to be free, especially if their originator
has made them open source.

No one is going to blame you for giving something to others
for free. If you are THAT gracious, you are out of consideration
as far as this discussion goes. The discussion I am having is
to make sure people realise that everything has some energy
devoted to it and simply expecting something for "free", is
nothing more than abusing the balance.

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[tanix]

And that indirection brings in the cost too. Canceling 'free'.


Software may bne based on ideas, but creating it involves a big deal of hard
work. When we get to telephatic interfaces and the "software == idea", you
may call it free, not before that. (I meant to state the truth -- in
another sense you're free to claim whatever falseness or mince words for
misleading. )

We need to get used to idea that you have to PAY for something you get.
Simply sucking on energy of those that are willing to give it to you
does not justify your parasitic nature.

Would ANY of you would be willing to work for free and waste
YEARS of their lives not to be acknowledged and being taken care of?


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[tanix]

As a sentence, that's almost entirely devoid of meaning. And yet it is
still, somehow antagonistic, and offered without any sort of evidence or
reasoning behind it.

No wonder you love that Nanci Pelosi piece so much. Two peas in a pod.
(Although yours was both briefer and better written).

Well, the "problem" with GCC is not really a problem with compiler
as such. The compiler is good enough and I trust the brand to be in
top slots for whatever parameters.

The "problem" with it is that it is not an IDE.
Compiler is just a compiler.
But what we work is not a compiler.
We work with IDE, the whole works.
Debugging, editing, and code completion specifically
and the rest of it.

I wish the Netbeans and Eclipse would learn the code completion
and screen space utilization from Visual Studio.

As far as I know, the code completion is simply horrible.
Screen utilization is simply sloppy.
And it all has been solved in visual studio.
And THAT is the standard. We can't go lower than that any longer.

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