Moderating and netiquet whiners hurting interest in Perl

[xhoster]

Hi Xho-
This is actually a very intriguing post of yours...
You say you *almost never* get flamed-
and that's a *good* thing?

Whether it is good or bad, it contradicts your assertions.

If I was in a friendship where I was *almost never*
beaten up, would that be a "good thing" ??

I guess it would depend whether you like rough-housing. It seems like
beating each other up is nearly a prerequisite for friendship for some
people, particularly young male people. Although is a pretty weird analogy
in the first place, as this group isn't alt.callahans or something like
that.

My guess is that the Qquestion/(s) you posted did not
deserve to be flamed-

Which ones? The ones that were flamed or the ones that weren't?

Abusive people work on the motto that the people they
beat up "deserve it". Trust me; they know who they
are.

So if I don't know if I am one of those people or not, does that mean I'm
not one of those people?

Just some food for thought.

Xho

 

[xhoster]

[---] If you take the time to do a bit of your own research and
frame a coherent question, you'll get useful responses.

If you post incoherent babble that basically amounts to "I'm scared of
the docs and I want someone to hold my hand and read them to me",
you'll get flames in response, and rightly so. This ain't a
baby-sitting service.

Sherm, software is touched more and more by non-programmers, and a
group with the name "misc" in it implies "generality" - if this group
was named comp.lang.perl.guru, or comp.lang.perl.moderated or some
such, then that would definitely be a signal for the newbie to
beware...

Newsgroups are supposed to promote communication; this group is unique
in that most random threads that I click on have several posts with an
summary of either;

0. Go away

That is very communicative.

1. Read the faq

You came here for advise. This is excellent advise.

2. Read the perldoc

I rarely see this, without some kind of -f or -q argument to go along
with it. And when it has (an appropriate) -f or -q, then it is a very
appropriate response. Some of the best answers I've gotten here were
nothing more than "perldoc -q <foo>" because it pointed me directly to
the exact section of the docs that I had been looking for but could
not find.

One of the things I have noticed here with regret is the tendency to just
tell people to search for "html" (or whatever) on CPAN. A search that
returns 4000 hits with no particular filtering for relevance is simply not
useful.

3. Your question insults me

It's really no big deal to me because I'm quite comfortable with other
Perl information sources, but it's remarkable to me how this group has
become so statistically insular...

Usenet is *public*- If you want to create a moderated, gurus-only
cabal, then all you have to do is take 30 seconds out of your obviously
*very* busy day and just create a google group.

And if you want to create a group named alt.perl.please-abuse-our-patience,
go right ahead.

A few words of wisdom for those willing to listen; Everything you write
on the Internet lives forever; much like tattooing yourself; and the
person you flame may someday be your supervisor.... yes, that has
happened.

I'd rather be unemployed than be a sniveling coward.

Xho

 

[kevindotcar]

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

(e-mail address removed) writes:

FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed

Bullshit. [---]

Un-provoked potty-mouthism is a not-very professional trait-

Actually, that is honesty.

No, it's Neanderthalism.

[---]

Wake up! *You* have the power. Each time you see one of ask point a
poster to the documentation, *you* can step right in, and post a
complete and working answer to that question.

Sure- I've been solving my own Perl problems for a long time,
and I don't mind *sharing* my knowledge- As I'm sure *you* have
picked up a sizeable chunk of knowledge yourself- that you seem
to enjoy beating people over the head with.

[---] On the other hand, I can
see that so far the handful of contributions you have made to this group
have consisted entirely of pscyhobable.

whatever... and your ranting and raving at me is... *what* kind of
babble, exactly?

No, the big deal to you to be able to get someone's attention by
trolling.

Mirror time, pal.

I teach Statistics, and I have no idea what "statistically insular"
means.

I apologize- I meant to say "Sociologically insular"- I suppose
you teach sociology, too? wow- *that* would be a good one to
sit in on

[---]

You may wish to follow your own advice. (Not that you would know the
difference between UseNet and Google Groups, but that is another story).

[-other insults deleted-]

Spare me your hateful drivel, - I have done nothing to insult you,
said nothing to you *at all*, (unless you *think* that something I
posted somehow applies to you) and have said *nothing* to you to
warrant this posting of yours, and I would never even dream of saying
anything that would warrant this kind of response from a fellow human
being.

Yet you would happily spend the rest of your day typing insults to
someone you don't even know, for no reason other than that is the
person you are; and somewhere in that fevered brain of yours, you
think "...that guy deserves it" - right?

Just *what* are you trying to prove, Sinan? That you're smarter than
everyone else? That you're *meaner* than everyone else? But if it
makes you happy, I shall proclaim you the almighty ruler of
comp.lang.perl.misc and the King of Mars.

Desea vivo el rey

kDot

 

[kevindotcar]

wrote:


Only if you mistake an argument (flame) for beating up, sure.

Hi John.
Questions 2U;

1. Do you think that insults are verbal abuse?
2. Do you think abuse is tolerated in professional situations?

A friendship that never has arguments / disagreements / fights is probably
one were one person is extremely afraid of the other.

Last one;
3. Do you think arguments / disagreements can be undertaken without
abuse?


Just curious,

kDot

 

[kevindotcar]

[---]

Abusive people work on the motto that the people they
beat up "deserve it". Trust me; they know who they
are.

So if I don't know if I am one of those people or not, does that mean I'm
not one of those people?

I think that is a much more important question for you to answer than
any Perl question.

kDot

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

Hi John.
Questions 2U;

1. Do you think that insults are verbal abuse?

Depends on the strength of the insult.

Question back: do you think that wasting time of professionals is abuse
of their time?

2. Do you think abuse is tolerated in professional situations?

Insults, yes. Happens all the time.

Last one;
3. Do you think arguments / disagreements can be undertaken without
abuse?

Yup. But:

3. Do you think arguments / disagreements can be undertaken without
insults.

Hardly, not even in a professional world

Ask yourself the next question: is Usenet a professional world? Or is it
more like a club/pub?

 

[kevindotcar]

Hi John,

wrote:

Question back: do you think that wasting time of professionals is abuse
of their time?

I see your line of questioning and rejoin back to you-
Am *I* wasting your time, or is it in fact *you* that is wasting your
time?

Insults, yes. Happens all the time.

Not anymore (here's just a sample);
http://www.job-law.com/articles/7315.cfm?vPage=7315
If you're posting from a different country, then I have no clue as to
what's applicable.

[---]

Hardly, not even in a professional world

Ask yourself the next question: is Usenet a professional world? Or is it more like a club/pub?

Neither- I'd say it's closest to a kindergarden.

kDot

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

Actually, it looks like Dotcar is a last name, so yeah, possible.

"152B 71 Dotcar John 30 Hungary 008-151b.txt"

<http://ftp.us-census.org/pub/usgenweb/census/oh/cuyahoga/1900/indx-d2.
txt>

Hmmm ... Thanks for the correction. It sounded too much like dot-something
to me.

Sinan

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

You may wish to follow your own advice. (Not that you would know the
difference between UseNet and Google Groups, but that is another
story).

[-other insults deleted-]

I am curious: What did you perceive as an insult following this point?
This is all I said:

Sinan

 

[kevindotcar]

I am curious: What did you perceive as an insult following this point?
This is all I said:

Sinan, in case you may not have been told this before, you come on
really, *really* strong in conversations (maybe unnoticed to you)- So
I'll break it down for you;

You write:
Okay- in here you are implying that I don't know something (that I
obviously do)- Google groups are a smaller audience than Usenet
groups; I offered the suggestion, yet you respond with "I don't know
the difference"-

I've got news (no pun intended); it *you guys* that are at odds with
the whole damn planet that's reading news...

Further; you guys around here insist on having a *public* newsgroup
(that is both unmoderated and mis-named) yet declare holy Jihad when
crappy questions are posted...

Well, duhhh! over a billion frickin' people read Google and Google owns
Usenet... *deal with it* for chrissakes...

And as others have said, you are *not* doing the language a favor by
crapping on every person (or even select persons) for posting silly
questions, and *that* bothers me, especially in an environment with
people choosing VB-like alternatives because Perl programmers are
"considered weird".

And then you write:
Okay, here you post accusations about me (from which I never, *never*
even knew you even frickin existed before you responded to my post) and
you, a total stanger to me, bring my frickin' parents into the whole
deal...Lemme spell it out for you; R - U - D - E; Rule of thumb they
didn't teach you in Grad school;

Keep conversations between yourself
and the person you're talking to;

otherwise you are engaging in "argumentum ad populum" logical fallacy.

I am not lecturing you, or trying to be condescending in any way- and
maybe, just *maybe* you yourself were not trying to be insulting;

Thanks for asking, by the way.

kDot

 

[kevindotcar]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

[---]

Well, duhhh! over a billion frickin' people read Google and Google owns
Usenet... *deal with it* for chrissakes...

I aplogize for misspeaking-
Google owns DejaNews, which is the largest publicly-held UseNet
archive.

kDot

 

[kevindotcar]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

[---]

And as others have said, you are *not* doing the language a favor by
crapping on every person (or even select persons) for posting silly
questions, and *that* bothers me, especially in an environment with
people choosing VB-like alternatives because Perl programmers are
"considered weird".

And one more thing...
Everytime someone in here craps on some poor shmuck who asks "how do
I decode a hash value", that is possibly yet *another* voice of
advocacy being smashed... That same poor shmuck will 50% of the time
say;

"screw it- I'll do it in VB".
...And so dies the most amazing computer language ever written.

These are perilous economic times for publicly owned software, and we
are *all* the voice of advocacy for it's use. If you misuse that
voice, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

If any of you want to flame me for that, you can just kiss my hash.

kDot

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

FWIW, don't bother posting questions here- You'll just get flamed-

Not true. It's just that lazy dogs, who don't make reasonable own
efforts before asking questions, are not well seen among the
knowledgable programmers who answer most of the questions here. I like
that. And I dislike the lazy dogs, who often seem to believe that they
have some kind of right to be spoon-fed.

Others get usually polite and helpful answers to their questions.

To get help with Perl, try subscribing on some of the ListServ's out
there...

Of course there are also other places where Perl is discussed. For a
while I participated at
http://lists.perl.org/showlist.cgi?name=beginners, but when I tried to
enforce a minimum requirement of own efforts by the questioners, I was
considered mean by some and told off by the moderator, so I left. Better
participating here and being considered (relatively) kind, than
considered mean among the lazy dogs at the Beginners List. ;-)

 

[gimme_this_gimme_that]

Just for laughs and giggles ...

Would you consider the orginal poster of the current thread :

"Working with Duplicates in Perl to generate Unique ID"

a lazy dog?

Apparently, Perl Policeman Sinan Unur does.

 

[gimme_this_gimme_that]

Oh it's common. But sometimes it's a bad practice. If someone comes
along with
a great question and an abusive Perl Policeman issues a ticket post,
other's might not even bother reading the original post seeing that a
follow post
has been made.

By the way Robert, and you too Sinan, your skills are badly needed on
ca.politics.

 

[gimme_this_gimme_that]

So you think there is a problem with the guy who started the
"Working with Duplicates in Perl to generate Unique ID" thread. Like
Sinan. Right?

 

[A. Sinan Unur]

(e-mail address removed) wrote in @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

So you think

Who thinks what? Please quote some context when you post a reply.

there is a problem with the guy who started the "Working with
Duplicates in Perl to generate Unique ID" thread. Like Sinan.
Right?

I am going to assume you think I think there is a problem with
(e-mail address removed) due to his/her post <1119019737.746603.282920
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>. I do not. I pointed out the poster
in that case that the convention here is to first try to write
some code, and then ask specific questions related to the code.

The poster then responded that he was unaware of the guidelines,
and that he/she would make an effort to follow them in the future.

Hence, I am assuming, the next post from that poster will be formed in
such a way to maximize the utility of this group in finding solutions to
his/her problem. I will be more likely to want and try to help someone
who reacts to my civilized advice in a civilized manner.

In short, I do not think there is anything wrong with (e-mail address removed)
based on that one post.

Sinan

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

Just for laughs and giggles ...

Would you consider the orginal poster of the current thread :

"Working with Duplicates in Perl to generate Unique ID"

a lazy dog?

It depends on his intention with posting that job specification.

If he posted it in the hope that others would write his program for him,
I'd say yes, while if he seeked guidance on which approach to apply, my
answer would be no.

The responses include both complete programs and guidance on the
approach. It's not apparent to me what kind of response the OP actually
hoped for.

Apparently, Perl Policeman Sinan Unur does.

I have no idea what you mean by that remark. Sinan posted a couple of
relevant pointers to the perldoc, and also advised the OP to study the
posting guidelines.

Hopefully I have now contributed to your amusement.

Btw, please respect the netiquette and provide some context when
replying to a message. ;-)

 

[Eric Schwartz]

So you think there is a problem with the guy who started the
"Working with Duplicates in Perl to generate Unique ID" thread. Like
Sinan. Right?

All this hullabaloo got me to read that post, and it seems to me
A. Sinan's response was not only not rude, it was very helpful and
informative. He pointed the OP to the docs that he would need to read
to solve his problem in a very polite and professional way, the OP
thanked him for his help, and promised to read the posting guidelines
before posting again. I don't see anyone in that thread having a
problem with anyone else.

-=Eric

 

[Jürgen Exner]

Well, duhhh! over a billion frickin' people read Google and Google
owns Usenet... *deal with it* for chrissakes...

Believe me, I am trying hard to remind people that _this_ is nothing but a
marketing myth from Google.

jue