Moderating and netiquet whiners hurting interest in Perl

[Jürgen Exner]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

[---]

Well, duhhh! over a billion frickin' people read Google and Google
owns Usenet... *deal with it* for chrissakes...

I aplogize for misspeaking-
Google owns DejaNews, which is the largest publicly-held UseNet
archive.

As an archive they are ok (although personally l prefered DejaNews). As a
newsreader Google simply sucks.

jue

 

[Tintin]

[Please use proper quoting]

Oh it's common. But sometimes it's a bad practice. If someone comes
along with
a great question and an abusive Perl Policeman issues a ticket post,
other's might not even bother reading the original post seeing that a
follow post
has been made.

Please provide an example of where this has happened. It's all well and good
to make statements like this, but you need to follow it up with evidence.

 

[Jürgen Exner]

Oh it's common. But sometimes it's a bad practice.

What is common? What is a bad practice?
Would you mind providing some context such that people have a chance to
understand what you are talking about?

jue

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

Hi John,


I see your line of questioning and rejoin back to you-
Am *I* wasting your time, or is it in fact *you* that is wasting your
time?

People who fill this group with questions without reading FAQs, perldoc
etc are wasting the time of people who want to help people here. Not
only that, they are also stealing time from people who *did* do research
before they asked. Every day I skip very fast through this group since I
got tired of reading: I have no clue about Perl, but downloaded this CGI
script and now I want it rewritten according to my specs, free and fast.

Not anymore (here's just a sample);
http://www.job-law.com/articles/7315.cfm?vPage=7315
If you're posting from a different country, then I have no clue as
to
what's applicable.

Verbal Harassment is abuse. Not all insults are abuse. If I call you a
n00b, that's an insult, but not abuse. You are smart enough (I hope) [1]
to know the difference.

Neither- I'd say it's closest to a kindergarden.

So are quite a lot of professional offices. So go with the flow.

In short, you can argue until you get tired, you won't change a thing.

[1] another insult ;-)

 

[John Bokma]

Hmmm ... Thanks for the correction. It sounded too much like
dot-something to me.

Still might be, I just put it into Google and found out that it could be a
last name (it sounded like one to me).

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

Further; you guys around here insist on having a *public* newsgroup
(that is both unmoderated and mis-named) yet declare holy Jihad when
crappy questions are posted...

The naming of this group is old. I guess even before everybody started
downloading CGI scripts and requested custom versions here.

Well, duhhh! over a billion frickin' people read Google and Google owns
Usenet... *deal with it* for chrissakes...

So you do indeed know little about Usenet. There is no way Google can *own*
Usenet. Already people ploink messages that come via Google. As soon as
Google thinks it *owns* Usenet, it will get an UDP.

And as others have said, you are *not* doing the language a favor by
crapping on every person (or even select persons) for posting silly
questions,

They do the language even less favor, so crap ahead, please.

and *that* bothers me, especially in an environment with
people choosing VB-like alternatives because Perl programmers are
"considered weird".

I don't care what language they choose. VB is a different language and
certainly not a replacement of Perl. And of course a different culture. If
I learn VB, I have to stick to that culture.

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

And one more thing...
Everytime someone in here craps on some poor shmuck who asks "how do
I decode a hash value", that is possibly yet *another* voice of
advocacy being smashed... That same poor shmuck will 50% of the time
say;

"screw it- I'll do it in VB".
...And so dies the most amazing computer language ever written.

Do I care? No. I doubt that anyone here cares. Why? Because that same
fellow *will* run in problems every day, and hopefully gives up to be a
programmer. He wants painting by numbers, but can't/won't learn to count.

These are perilous economic times for publicly owned software, and we
are *all* the voice of advocacy for it's use. If you misuse that
voice, you have no one to blame but yourselves.

Perl is not a religion, or at least I sincerly hope so. (Amen to that).

 

[John Bokma]

Believe me, I am trying hard to remind people that _this_ is nothing
but a marketing myth from Google.

There are people who just kf every message coming via Google

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

Oh it's common. But sometimes it's a bad practice. If someone comes
along with
a great question and an abusive Perl Policeman issues a ticket post,
other's might not even bother reading the original post seeing that a
follow post
has been made.

You are aware that many people do read replies, especially if they are made
by regulars since you can learn from it? I do Perl for 10+ years, and even
I learn often new things or gain knew knowledge by just reading replies.
And if I can add a reply I will do so.

Also, due to how Usenet works, it's possible that you see a reply, and I
not (yet).

 

[John Bokma]

All this hullabaloo got me to read that post, and it seems to me
A. Sinan's response was not only not rude, it was very helpful and
informative. He pointed the OP to the docs that he would need to read
to solve his problem in a very polite and professional way, the OP
thanked him for his help, and promised to read the posting guidelines
before posting again. I don't see anyone in that thread having a
problem with anyone else.

Moreover, the thread still gets new answers with example scripts, etc.

Maybe instead of pointing lazy posters to the FAQ they just should be
ploinked. More time for usefull questions :-D (Like mine on LWP:arallel).

 

[kevindotcar]

Hi John;

[---]

So you do indeed know little about Usenet. There is no way Google can *own*
Usenet. Already people ploink messages that come via Google. As soon as
Google thinks it *owns* Usenet, it will get an UDP.

You missed my apology just 30 seconds after I Posted this stmt- Google
owns the Deja archive, which is the largest commercial archive of
Usenet postings. As for killfiling, sure- you can KF me from here to
Xmas, but something tells me you're not that kind of person (something
about that pub-analogy we talked about made me want to make a
screwdriver . And BTW- your website seems to have quite a lot of
Google-related goodies,,, so I very much doubt you *seriously* believe
what you're posting here about Google

They do the language even less favor, so crap ahead, please.

That is utter, unmitigated rubbish and you *know* it, John. Perl is the
language that started Yahoo and eBay, and free shopping carts and
eCommerce; Everyone starts *somewhere*- and Perl is the best "glue"
language in the world... If your precious "misc" NG is so precious
that you only want "Perl" questions (and nothing about what it's
actually used for), then *moderate* it and stop bitching and moaning.

I don't care what language they choose.

....well, I think that's just a nihlist remark for you to make some
silly point to me... You are a *professional* Perl free-lance
programmer; yet you *don't care* what other programmers (sic; business
opportunities) are programming in???? My first inclination is to think
Not much of a professional we have here- eh?

VB is a different language and
certainly not a replacement of Perl. And of course a different culture. If
I learn VB, I have to stick to that culture.

....And that classifies as a boneheaded remark;

Thousands of real-world Win32::OLE Perl scripts run everyday that run
the entire MS Office suite, and thousands more Microsoft COM-based
3rd-party tools as automation servers- My personal fave is Crystal
Reports (Runs a good 10X faster in Perl instead of VB). Any good
programmer (yes, that's you) knows it's *not* about "culture", but
solution delivery.

And BTW-
I've personally used info that you've published on your website (quite
recently) that contradict this last statement of yours, so *Please*
don't make statements that you *know* aren't true, just to make some
feeble argumentative point in your favor... It's not worth it to your
"professional" status.

kDot

 

[John Bokma]

wrote:

Hi John;

[---]

So you do indeed know little about Usenet. There is no way Google can
*own* Usenet. Already people ploink messages that come via Google. As
soon as Google thinks it *owns* Usenet, it will get an UDP.

You missed my apology just 30 seconds after I Posted this stmt-

Yup, Usenet

owns the Deja archive, which is the largest commercial archive of
Usenet postings. As for killfiling, sure- you can KF me from here to
Xmas, but something tells me you're not that kind of person

Yup, true. I use the kill file very rarely, and only for hard cases, or
weekly FAQ postings I already can dream.

(something about that pub-analogy we talked about made me want to
make a screwdriver . And BTW- your website seems to have quite a
lot of Google-related goodies,,, so I very much doubt you *seriously*
believe what you're posting here about Google

That if Google is going to mess up Usenet it will get an UDP? I am sure
about that. The thing is, Usenet works thanks to many newsmasters, and
every newsmaster is the sole authority on his newsserver. If Google
starts to mess up *their* server, Google will be rejected from it.

That is utter, unmitigated rubbish and you *know* it, John. Perl is
the language that started Yahoo and eBay, and free shopping carts and
eCommerce; Everyone starts *somewhere*- and Perl is the best "glue"
language in the world... If your precious "misc" NG is so precious
that you only want "Perl" questions (and nothing about what it's
actually used for), then *moderate* it and stop bitching and moaning.

I don't like moderating nor moderated groups. A group should find its
balance out of itself.

...well, I think that's just a nihlist remark for you to make some
silly point to me... You are a *professional* Perl free-lance
programmer; yet you *don't care* what other programmers (sic;
business opportunities) are programming in????

No, why should I? Most of my customers can't program, or if they can,
they don't have the time. You think they are first hanging out here,
hoping to learn the language by asking and asking and asking questions
they can answer in 1 day if they took the time to read a book?

People who come here for free rides (e.g. I found this CGI script, and
please rewrite it according to the following specs) I even *don't* want
as a customer.

My first inclination
is to think Not much of a professional we have here- eh?

If you think you can make a living of people who want their scripts
fixed for free, go ahead.

...And that classifies as a boneheaded remark;

Thousands of real-world Win32::OLE Perl scripts run everyday that run
the entire MS Office suite, and thousands more Microsoft COM-based
3rd-party tools as automation servers- My personal fave is Crystal
Reports (Runs a good 10X faster in Perl instead of VB). Any good
programmer (yes, that's you) knows it's *not* about "culture", but
solution delivery.

Does this make Perl a *replacement* of VB (or vice versa): no.

A programming language gathers a culture. What do you not understand? If
you pick 100 VB programmers and pick 100 Perl programmers you *will* see
a difference.

If you still don't get this, learn 2 or 3 programming languages.

And BTW-
I've personally used info that you've published on your website (quite
recently) that contradict this last statement of yours,

Now I am curious

 

[Robert Sedlacek]

(e-mail address removed) wrote

Oh it's common. But sometimes it's a bad practice. If someone comes
along with a great question and an abusive Perl Policeman issues a
ticket post, other's might not even bother reading the original post
seeing that a follow post has been made.

I mostly see good questions good answered, with notices about flaws
about formal stuff. I don't think questions, which could be avoided by
reading the docs, the faqs or the newsgroup archives, are good
questions.

By the way Robert, and you too Sinan, your skills are badly needed on
ca.politics.

ca.politics? I don't know what you want to say, I'm not a native english
speaker, so sorry if it's a lack of my english.


p

 

[Charlton Wilbur]

SC> Go somewhere else where people aren't are rude as you? Good
SC> advise.

Rudeness is not the only appropriate criterion.

In cases where someone asks an intelligent question, Sherm is
incredibly helpful; I've seen him in action here and elsewhere.

I'd much rather have an expert who's rude to people who can't be
bothered to do their own legwork than someone barely competent who's
unfailingly polite and full of wrong answers.

Those really are the only two options, because experts who are
unfailingly polite and full off correct answers, even when rude and
lazy people ask, generally burn out quickly and find better things to
do with their time.

Charlton

 

[Brian McCauley]

I'd much rather have an expert who's rude to people who can't be
bothered to do their own legwork than someone barely competent who's
unfailingly polite and full of wrong answers.

Those really are the only two options, because experts who are
unfailingly polite and full off correct answers, even when rude and
lazy people ask, generally burn out quickly and find better things to
do with their time.

There is forth type of answerer of questions: people who are rude _and_
provide barely compentant answers. We've had a few of them amongst the
regulars too. (And I'm sure if we were all to be Frank we'd know whom
I'm recalling).

 

[Sherm Pendley]

There is forth type of answerer of questions

Sorry, this is a *Perl* group. Forth is off-topic here.

sherm--

 

[lynn]

So you think there is a problem with the guy who started the
"Working with Duplicates in Perl to generate Unique ID" thread. Like
Sinan. Right?

I have checked the thread you are talking about and see nothing wrong
with the question or the answer. What exactly are you talking about?

Lynn

 

[kevindotcar]

John Bokma wrote:

[---]

Usenet is like going to a pub. Your mate in a pub might become your
supervisor.... Does that prevent you (general, not you specific) from
getting pissed?

Hi, John-
let's explore that analogy---

Someone walks into your pub and shouts;
"...Can someone come out in the rain and help me change my
tyre?..."

You obviously have three choices;

1. Shout "PISS OFF! READ YOUR OWNERS MANUAL YOU HOPELESS TWIT!"
2. Go help him/her
3. Turn your back and ignore the whole thing.

I'm pretty sure you'd choose 2 or 3, but I'm interested in how you
could actually personally condone (or dismiss) choice 1-behavior as a
separate reality from the workplace or anywhere else for that matter.

kDot

 

[John Bokma]

let's explore that analogy---

let's not, since you try to make a point you didn't have in the first
place.

[a] most answers in this group are written by regulars
most regulars want to see:

[1] a good subject
[2] a clear, unambigous description of the problem
[3] if the description includes code:

it must be Perl
[ii] it must compile
[iii] it must be as short as possible
[iv] it must be readable
[v] it must contain proper error handling
[vi] use strict; use warnings;
[4] some evidence that the OP did some research

[5] If a solution works, say so, and a "thank you".

I think that people who follow the above 5 points should be rewarded with a
good answer. Such an answer (or as often is the case: several) are only
possible if this group is not flooded with people too lazy to do some
research.

In short: survival of the fittest. People who are too lazy to do research,
RTFM, RTFFAQ, etc. *shouldn't* be programming.