New Python.org website ?

[Obaid R.]

I thought I read here that a new website design was in the works for
python.org in time for the new year? Is that still true and of so,
anyone know what is it's status?
Thanks!

I googled around and found no background on how the new Python logo
came to be selected. Does any one know why or how the logo shown in the
upper left corner of the beta.python.org site was choosen? Which other
logos were rejected? Is there a particular reason why it is shaped like
a cross?

Thanks

 

[Shalabh Chaturvedi]

http://beta.python.org

Hm. Am I the only one not particularly impressed? Sure the front page is
'slick' but a few clicks reveal a fairly shallow facade of marketing
material, with no real content. In general gives the impression of
'phony' company trying to make a big impression. Most good non-tech
managers are very wary of such organizations/companies.

My gripes with the whole thing:

1. Learn why.., Learn why.., Learn more..? Unless each one takes you
directly to a great success story, these should be removed.

2. There is no (published) Python success story for Google. So link to
google.com looks phony. What does 'Google written in Python' mean
anyway? The google.com server is Python? One backend script is in
Python? Without more information, this just seems likes a shameless
attempt to create credibility. (Sure I know Google uses Python
extensively, but I'm not the one who needs to be sold on Python).

3. What is PyXP? Windows XP? Extreme Programming? Again, there is
nothing underneath. Where is the NASA success story?

4. I have a lot of respect for GvR, but there ought to be more
advertising of the fact that the language is not supported by just one
person. There is an great dev team behind it and a stable PSF
organization. Anyone reading 'developed by one person' is not left with
the fuzzy feeling of a mature, well-supported product that is here to stay.

5. A 'more..' link under Written in Python is sorely missing. It appears
only 5-6 apps are written in Python. Where is a link to the cheese shop?

Managers are looking for maturity, stability, support and unique
strengths, not coolness or flashy sites (though presentation definitely
helps).

Hopefully most of these will get fixed as people 'convert' the site and
fill in content. I would urge people to do some 'user' testing - get
persons not very familiar with Python and get their honest opinion on
the site.

The only think I liked was the 'Using Python For' section on the home page.

That's all for now.

Cheers,
Shalabh

 

[Steve Holden]

I googled around and found no background on how the new Python logo
came to be selected. Does any one know why or how the logo shown in the
upper left corner of the beta.python.org site was choosen? Which other
logos were rejected? Is there a particular reason why it is shaped like
a cross?

Thanks

The history of this choice is lost in the mists of time. Many other
proposals were made and discussed at around the same time, to the extent
that it became clear no one choice could win universal approval.

You are the first person to my knowledge to point out that it is shaped
like a cross. There is no significance in this shape.

Is there, I ask with some trepidation, a specific point to this question?

regards
Steve

 

[Steve Holden]

I googled around and found no background on how the new Python logo
came to be selected. Does any one know why or how the logo shown in the
upper left corner of the beta.python.org site was choosen? Which other
logos were rejected? Is there a particular reason why it is shaped like
a cross?

Thanks

One further point: adding "pydotorg" to your search might yield relevant
information, including references to articles that can be found in

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-redesign/

regards
Steve

 

[Tim N. van der Leeuw]

Shalabh,

You've managed very well to express the same things I feel about the
new Python website.

What I especially dislike about the new website are the flashy pictures
on the front-page with no content and no purpose -- purely boasting but
nothing to back up your claims.

(I wouldn't mind some sleek pictures there if they weren't desperatly
trying to advertise success-stories but instead would link to real
content!)

I do like to overall look-and-feel of the beta site but I hope the bad
bits get fixed before launch!

cheers,

--Tim

 

[Neil Hodgson]

Steve Holden:

The history of this choice is lost in the mists of time. Many other
proposals were made and discussed at around the same time, to the extent
that it became clear no one choice could win universal approval.

The two snakes have just been arguing (over decorator syntax, the
GIL, and the pressing need to merge the dictionary and list types), are
feeling very +cross+, and have turned their backs on each other.

Neil

 

[Tim Golden]

[Shalabh Chaturvedi]

| Hm. Am I the only one not particularly impressed? Sure the
| front page is
| 'slick' but a few clicks reveal a fairly shallow facade of marketing
| material, with no real content. In general gives the impression of
| 'phony' company trying to make a big impression. Most good non-tech
| managers are very wary of such organizations/companies.

[... snip similar stuff highlighting the relative
lightweightness of the content ...]

Ummm. I might have missed the point, and certainly what I'm about
to say is based on no more than my reading between the lines of
Steve's original announcement, but... I see the current beta
site as a layout/display/look-and-feel beta, *not* a content
beta, at least no more than is absolutely necessary to support
the look-and-feel.

Now I might be wrong, in which case your comments are pretty
much justified. But it looks to me as though most of the
content was banged in a year or so ago (or more, maybe) to
give a this-kind-of-blurb feel, some or all of which would
be replaced with current and agreed blurb before the thing
went live.

You might argue that the beta shouldn't have been unveiled
without suitable text etc. But I would say: well done to
the people who've made the effort and put the beta
together. It's been mentioned that the whole thing is
downloadable and open to contributions, so maybe that's
the way forward for you: make or implement your suggestions
and send them back to the maintainers.

TJG

 

[Steve Holden]

Shalabh,

You've managed very well to express the same things I feel about the
new Python website.

What I especially dislike about the new website are the flashy pictures
on the front-page with no content and no purpose -- purely boasting but
nothing to back up your claims.

(I wouldn't mind some sleek pictures there if they weren't desperatly
trying to advertise success-stories but instead would link to real
content!)

I do like to overall look-and-feel of the beta site but I hope the bad
bits get fixed before launch!

What we are desperately missing is people to roll up their sleeves and
help with the process of content conversion and its onward maintenance.
The current beta site content is *far* from complete, and nobody is
married to the particular images on the front-page mock-up (which is
what that is).

The intention of the new system is to allow a much larger group of
people to assist in generating and maintaining the content. If we (the
PSF) don't succeed in recruiting content maintainers then the only
return on the time and money that's been spent will be a new look.

Remarks about the current content of the beta site are inappropriate. If
you want Python success stories to publicize there are plenty of them at

http://www.pythonology.org/success

The content needs responsible people to maintain it, not a slagging
before it's complete!

regards
Steve

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Hm. Am I the only one not particularly impressed?

no.

the design is alright (if a bit too "bland business"), but the little I've seen of the
information architecture and the backend infrastructure feels like 1998 (which,
I suppose, was when the project started...)

on the other hand, I haven't tracked the discussions that resulted in the current
architecture, so I'm probably missing something...

</F>

 

[Steve Holden]

Tim Golden wrote:
[...]

You might argue that the beta shouldn't have been unveiled
without suitable text etc. But I would say: well done to
the people who've made the effort and put the beta
together. It's been mentioned that the whole thing is
downloadable and open to contributions, so maybe that's
the way forward for you: make or implement your suggestions
and send them back to the maintainers.

Your surmise is correct, Tim. Anyone wishing to get involved will also
have the joy of working on a subversion-maintained master - this is
remarkably easy in Windows using Tortoise as well as through the
hair-shirt commands line preferred by Linux types

Checkins to subversion cause an automated update in the site content.

regards
Steve

 

[Tim N. van der Leeuw]

Checkins to subversion cause an automated update in the site content.

Good What's the subversion URL where I can fetch the site?

regards,

--Tim

 

[Tim N. van der Leeuw]

Steve,

My apologies if this apppeared to be 'slagging'. I was trying to give
some feedback but I do realize that I don't have anything better to
offer yet to replace the pictures I dislike.

Perhaps I should have withheld my criticisms until I could offer an
alternative. (Still thinking about what could be there instead of those
3 pictures. But I'd like there to be some actual real Python content,
or links to events from the Python Events Calender; or perhaps links to
large python projects like Zope -- something that links to the major
parts of Python. Perhaps 1 picture that links to Python Web Development
including things like Zope, Django, etc; another picture that links to
a page giving overview of major IDEs for Python; and 3d picture that
links to page with Python Event calender... Something along those
lines. But I don't have any graphics for you.)

regards,

--Tim

 

[Steve Holden]

Good What's the subversion URL where I can fetch the site?

The URL is

https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org

but I don't know whether anonymous access is enabled. Maybe you can let
me know ...

You'll also need the notes from

http://psf.pollenation.net/cgi-bin/trac.cgi

regards
Steve

 

[Tim Golden]

[Steve Holden]

| https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org

| but I don't know whether anonymous access is enabled. Maybe you can
let
|me know ...

Doesn't look like it. Asking me for authentication.

TJG

 

[Steve Holden]

Steve,

My apologies if this apppeared to be 'slagging'. I was trying to give
some feedback but I do realize that I don't have anything better to
offer yet to replace the pictures I dislike.

That's absolutely fine, the redevelopment of the site is intended to be
an open process. I just didn't want creativity wasted in criticizing
content that was only there as a placeholder.

You also gave me a chance to recruit further content editors, which is
something we really need to do.

Perhaps I should have withheld my criticisms until I could offer an
alternative. (Still thinking about what could be there instead of those
3 pictures. But I'd like there to be some actual real Python content,
or links to events from the Python Events Calender; or perhaps links to
large python projects like Zope -- something that links to the major
parts of Python. Perhaps 1 picture that links to Python Web Development
including things like Zope, Django, etc; another picture that links to
a page giving overview of major IDEs for Python; and 3d picture that
links to page with Python Event calender... Something along those
lines. But I don't have any graphics for you.)

Keep thinking!

regards
Steve

 

[Steve Holden]

[Steve Holden]

| https://svn.python.org/www/trunk/beta.python.org

| but I don't know whether anonymous access is enabled. Maybe you can
let
|me know ...

Doesn't look like it. Asking me for authentication.

Rats, thanks for letting me know. As a first step I'd like to open up
anonymous access to both the content and the site generation software,
so that people can experiment with local content generation.

Then once someone knows how to use the system they can get a login for
the SVN system and start editing site content.

I'll get back to the list with instructions ASAP. It may take a while
due to inter-continental time differences and general overwork.

regards
Steve

 

[Tim N. van der Leeuw]

I need to supply a username/password before I can look at the SVN
repository in my webbrowser; I tried username/pwd 'anonymous' but that
don't work.

cheers,

--Tim

 

[Roel Schroeven]

Tim N. van der Leeuw schreef:

Shalabh,

You've managed very well to express the same things I feel about the
new Python website.

FWIW, I don't like the new site at all. It tries to look slick (but
fails to do so in my opinion), and buries the useful information in all
kinds of misplaced eye candy.

In fact I like the old one better: short, clear and to the point.

 

[Tim Parkin]

Hm. Am I the only one not particularly impressed? Sure the front page is
'slick' but a few clicks reveal a fairly shallow facade of marketing
material, with no real content. In general gives the impression of
'phony' company trying to make a big impression. Most good non-tech
managers are very wary of such organizations/companies.

Well apart from the front page and a couple of pages providing content
specific to different types of usersm the whole site is the same as it
was before. Do you have a problem with marketing python or with the
content of the python site? Could you expand on why you think the beta
site looks 'phony'?

My gripes with the whole thing:

1. Learn why.., Learn why.., Learn more..? Unless each one takes you
directly to a great success story, these should be removed.

These will link directly to success stories.

2. There is no (published) Python success story for Google. So link to
google.com looks phony. What does 'Google written in Python' mean
anyway? The google.com server is Python? One backend script is in
Python? Without more information, this just seems likes a shameless
attempt to create credibility. (Sure I know Google uses Python
extensively, but I'm not the one who needs to be sold on Python).

""Python has been an important part of Google since the beginning, and
remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens of Google
engineers use Python, and we're looking for more people with skills in
this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search quality at Google,
Inc. "

thats what it says on the old site right at the top of the page...

3. What is PyXP? Windows XP? Extreme Programming? Again, there is
nothing underneath. Where is the NASA success story?

That particular graphic will probably be updated. The Nasa success story
is at

http://www.python.org/Quotes.html

4. I have a lot of respect for GvR, but there ought to be more
advertising of the fact that the language is not supported by just one
person. There is an great dev team behind it and a stable PSF
organization. Anyone reading 'developed by one person' is not left with
the fuzzy feeling of a mature, well-supported product that is here to stay.

So you think we should add some copy that creates a more positive
impression of python? Thanks for your suggestion to rewrite the copy
regarding the team behind python. Could you come up with some
alternative for this?

5. A 'more..' link under Written in Python is sorely missing. It appears
only 5-6 apps are written in Python. Where is a link to the cheese shop?

Yep... at the moment content is being migrated across. If you want to
add your assistance it would be of great benefit.

Managers are looking for maturity, stability, support and unique
strengths, not coolness or flashy sites (though presentation definitely
helps).

Could you tell me what about the site makes you think it looks 'cool' or
'flashy'?

Hopefully most of these will get fixed as people 'convert' the site and
fill in content. I would urge people to do some 'user' testing - get
persons not very familiar with Python and get their honest opinion on
the site.

We have done... The feedback was that some pictures would help engage
people who view the website for the first time. This was especially true
of non-programmers who may be assessing python as part of a business
decition (who will probably not get further than the home page).

Most developers tended to want to jump straight into bookmarked parts of
the site or just check the updated news. People wanting to learn about
python would try to find a 'for beginners' link (hence the prominence of
this).

Currently, it is more important to get existing copy across than create
the few new pages that are needed to support the home page. If we had
more volunteers then we could write this new content sooner.

A summary of questions whose answers may help us:

Do you have a problem with the way we are trying to 'market' python?
Which content in particular do you have an objection to?
Could you expand on why you think the beta site looks 'phony'?
Could you tell me what about the site makes you think it looks 'cool' or
'flashy'?
Could you come up with some alternative for the intro copy about python?

Tim Parkin

 

[Tim Parkin]

Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote:




no.

the design is alright (if a bit too "bland business"), but the little I've seen of the
information architecture and the backend infrastructure feels like 1998 (which,
I suppose, was when the project started...)

Could you expand on why the backend infrastructure and information
architecture feel like 1998? (it's a bit of an abstract comment and
doesn't offer anything constructive).

An example of a site info architecture that feels like 2005 would be
good. Also an example of a backend architecture that isn't like 1998
would be good too.

Tim Parkin