[OT] book - jQuery

[Andrew Poulos]

Yes, and someday the lameness of Windows will become apparent and the
Mac will drive it into the sea and Anna Kournikova will realize I was
the guy for her.

The lameness of Windows is well known. Even Microsoft acknowledges the
shortcomings of Vista.

Anyhow I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying in response to
"employers that want javascript may soon be hiring people who know
javascript", that employers will never want people who know javascript
to write javascript?

Andrew Poulos

 

[beegee]

There are some significant differences with mentioned technologies. They
were never broadly accepted and were forced by companies which made
them. A lot of hype at the beginning but with negative trend and
acceptance during the time.
Now look at the acceptance trend with js libs in past three years. There
is no question about should you use one of them, but which one should
you choose.

Huh? What were you doing in the 90s? I'm not prone to saying things
like "There is no question" and "Its a sure thing" but my impression
is that if you were to count the number of apps that use either
VBScript or COM objects they would outnumber web pages with js
libraries by a great deal. To say VBScript and COM were not broadly
accepted is delusional. And yet, though MS still supports them, new
apps that use them are rare.

Perhaps they are not, but they show direction of the mainstream flow,
and will be probably replaced by something better.

Well, sure. All the folks here are saying is that in their opinion is
that mainstream flow or not, they are not the answer. Doesn't mean
they are not open to something better.

Maybe, but in favor to mootools or vice versa. I'm speaking here for
what I have seen on general purpose sites in the past year or two. This
group is probably the only place which shows great deal of skepticism
toward libs future (not to mention hostility ).

Boy, you really like to generalize. Evangelism is often louder than
skepticism and I've heard skepticism in plenty of other places (.NET
user groups, the Ruby on Rails community for examples). And then
there is a huge segment of the programming community who believe
server framework generated Javascript is the only way to go.

Look at the trends as nothing happens over night, and make distinction
between trend and hype, .. or go and ask Matt Kruse.

My point is that I doubt you or I or Matt can make that distinction.
You just have to go with what your and your mentors' (who ever they
may be) engineering principles tell you is the right direction. I do
enjoy reading Matt's comments and respect his even-handed approach. I
simply don't agree with him on Jquery. It is not an abstraction I
would put between javascript and the DOM no matter what the 'trend'
is. I use YUI but mostly because it does not obfuscate the language
and I can use it in small isolated ways (dialogs, trees).

Bob

 

[Kenny]

The lameness of Windows is well known. Even Microsoft acknowledges the
shortcomings of Vista.

My point was aimed at those who look at the shortcomings of libraries
and say, "They won't last.".

Anyhow I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying in response to
"employers that want javascript may soon be hiring people who know
javascript", that employers will never want people who know javascript
to write javascript?

No, but look for those irritating help wanted ads asking for ten years
experience in qooxdoo after it will have been our for five. What
employers will not be doing is asking interview questions to test ones
mastery of the arcania of browser variability (they will looking for
that in the /libraries/ during the platform selection process.

my2.k

 

[David Mark]

My point was aimed at those who look at the shortcomings of libraries
and say, "They won't last.".

They won't. They only people who think these things are valuable are
those who don't know any better.

Those who argue that the currently popular libraries have been tested
with "everything" and that this "guarantees" cross-browser
compatibility are deluded. Sniffing for a handful of browser names
and branching accordingly is just a cheap parlour trick with
predictably fleeting "success." For most, the sniffing is just one of
many problems.

No, but look for those irritating help wanted ads asking for ten years
experience in ****** after it will have been our for five. What

Those exist only in your head.

employers will not be doing is asking interview questions to test ones
mastery of the arcania of browser variability (they will looking for
that in the /libraries/ during the platform selection process.

Now you think these lousy scripts are platforms?

You seem to think that cross-browser scripting is so completely
impossible that it can only be trusted to the likes of John Resig, et
al. Never mind that their use of browser sniffing to temporarily
simulate cross-browser compatibility proves they are incapable (not to
mention harmful!)

You've got it in your head that these are the only people on earth who
know how to retrieve DOM elements, normalize event handling, etc. and
therefore companies should just pick one of their scripts from the
outset of any project, regardless of the context. Think again.

my2.k

Worthless as usual.

 

[Kenny]

They won't. They only people who think these things are valuable are
those who don't know any better.

Ask yourself honestly if you think the things you know cannot be learned
by others, if only by stealing your code. ie, I am starting to wonder
exactly how computer-savvy you are. In other places you revealed you did
not understand that the Web could be programmed without HTML if a
non-HTML-syntax library generated the HTML for me, suggesting you do not
know what happens when a C compiler runs.

Such gaffes make it hard to hold an intelligent conversation, because I
cannot guess how little you know.

Of course if you are just trying however vainly to stem the tide towards
high-level frameworks in order to generate even more business for your
multi-million JS consulting enterprise, I understand and good look with
that, I am an entrepreneur, too.

Those who argue that the currently popular libraries have been tested
with "everything" and that this "guarantees" cross-browser
compatibility are deluded. Sniffing for a handful of browser names
and branching accordingly is just a cheap parlour trick with
predictably fleeting "success." For most, the sniffing is just one of
many problems.

Oh, thank god, because all you ever whine about is sniffing. But do not
be an idiot, this low-level dross can be cured as soon as it actually
becomes a problem, the hint here being that as much as you want it to be
a problem Amazon is making money and Burton is selling snowboards.

Speaking of which, the "they would be selling even more snowboards if
they were not browser-sniffing" line probably made a lot of lurkers pee
in their pants, so look out for some cleaning bills coming in.

Those exist only in your head.

Ads asking for extpertise in higher order crappy libraries exist only in
my head? Do you even know about Dice/Monster?

Now you think these lousy scripts are platforms?

Dojo and qooxdoo, yes, as design goals. qooxdoo goes the magical extra
yard by saying "requires no html/css". Other libraries, no.

You seem to think that cross-browser scripting is so completely
impossible that it can only be trusted to the likes of John Resig, et
al.

Sweet, you got it completely backwards. I think that if you can do it
anyone can do it. Unless of course you think you are God. That is the
problem, you are not. Any flaw in library X can be cured by carefully
stealing your code (or the knowledge inplicit therein) or by spending
enough time with this crap to learn the edge cases.

Dude, your time is now to capitalize on your mastery. In six months the
window will have closed. Thank god you are already a millionaire.

Never mind that their use of browser sniffing to temporarily
simulate cross-browser compatibility proves they are incapable (not to
mention harmful!)

You've got it in your head that these are the only people on earth who
know how to retrieve DOM elements, normalize event handling, etc. and
therefore companies should just pick one of their scripts from the
outset of any project, regardless of the context. Think again.

I do not have to because that is not what I am thinking, I am thinking
any average programmer tasked with making a firm's site run on all
platforms will learn what you have learned in a few months.

ie, You have commodity expertise. Move your millions into gold now!

hth,kny

 

[David Mark]

Ask yourself honestly if you think the things you know cannot be learned
by others, if only by stealing your code. ie, I am starting to wonder

I don't know how you would learn anything by stealing my code. But
good luck with that!

exactly how computer-savvy you are. In other places you revealed you did
not understand that the Web could be programmed without HTML if a
non-HTML-syntax library generated the HTML for me, suggesting you do not
know what happens when a C compiler runs.

You mean you can generate a DOM with script? How did I miss that?

Such gaffes make it hard to hold an intelligent conversation, because I
cannot guess how little you know.

Then do me a favor and stop talking to me.

Of course if you are just trying however vainly to stem the tide towards
high-level frameworks in order to generate even more business for your
multi-million JS consulting enterprise, I understand and good look with
that, I am an entrepreneur, too.

These libraries are great for business. I encourage all of my
competitors to use them.

Oh, thank god, because all you ever whine about is sniffing. But do not
be an idiot, this low-level dross can be cured as soon as it actually
becomes a problem, the hint here being that as much as you want it to be
a problem Amazon is making money and Burton is selling snowboards.

Burton?! Did you not see the snapshot? Hint: it had nothing to do
with sniffing, though I'm sure they do that to. And Amazon would
likely make more money if their pages didn't throw exceptions in IE
(just a theory.)

Speaking of which, the "they would be selling even more snowboards if
they were not browser-sniffing" line probably made a lot of lurkers pee
in their pants, so look out for some cleaning bills coming in.

Of course, I didn't say that.

Ads asking for extpertise in higher order crappy libraries exist only in
my head? Do you even know about Dice/Monster?

Nobody is looking for 10 years of experience with that monstrosity you
promote.

Dojo and qooxdoo, yes, as design goals. qooxdoo goes the magical extra
yard by saying "requires no html/css". Other libraries, no.
Idiot.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/document.createElement


Sweet, you got it completely backwards. I think that if you can do it
anyone can do it. Unless of course you think you are God. That is the

Well, by all means "do it."

problem, you are not. Any flaw in library X can be cured by carefully
stealing your code (or the knowledge inplicit therein) or by spending
enough time with this crap to learn the edge cases.

You aren't capable of stealing my code.

Dude, your time is now to capitalize on your mastery. In six months the
window will have closed. Thank god you are already a millionaire.

Thank god (sic) I am not an out-of-work algebra teacher with a
penchant for spamming.

I do not have to because that is not what I am thinking, I am thinking
any average programmer tasked with making a firm's site run on all
platforms will learn what you have learned in a few months.

Then why are you frantically jumping from one library to the next.
You are going to lose that contrat (sic).

[snip]

 

[Kenny]

I don't know how you would learn anything by stealing my code. But
good luck with that!




You mean you can generate a DOM with script? How did I miss that?




Then do me a favor and stop talking to me.

Sure. But it is not favors you need, you just have to show more will
power and not jump in on my exchanges with others as evidenced above.

These libraries are great for business. I encourage all of my
competitors to use them.




Burton?! Did you not see the snapshot? Hint: it had nothing to do
with sniffing, though I'm sure they do that to. And Amazon would
likely make more money if their pages didn't throw exceptions in IE
(just a theory.)




Of course, I didn't say that.




Nobody is looking for 10 years of experience with that monstrosity you
promote.




Well, by all means "do it."




You aren't capable of stealing my code.




Thank god (sic) I am not an out-of-work algebra teacher with a
penchant for spamming.




Then why are you frantically jumping from one library to the next.

Did you miss it?:

http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/12/road-to-qooxdoo.html

kt

 

[David Mark]

[snip]

Sure. But it is not favors you need, you just have to show more will
power and not jump in on my exchanges with others as evidenced above.

You just have to find another line of work.

[snip]

 

[Kenny]

You just have to find another line of work.

I'm looking at bartending school. I want the bouncers on my side for a
change.