[OT] Indian C programmers and "u"

[Floyd Davidson]

My theory is that this is a mistake induced by the native language of
the poster, where the same word could be used for both.

I doubt the extent of your English vocabulary.

A quick check in any dictionary should show that "doubt", used
as a transitive verb, means "question", and indeed "question"
will be listed as a synonym and/or as either part of the
definition or in the usage of the word.

Apparently this is less common today than it was historically,
because of the dictionaries that I did look at, newer ones use
it vaguely,

"... to consider questionable ..."

while older dictionaries are more explicit,

"doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
distrust of. ..."

This last from a 1968 edition.

 

[Heck]

Not me. And I live there.
My only 'ruler' is myself.



But correct English (or whatever the language being used)
communication can greatly aid learning of any topic.
Poor language skills lead to misunderstanding.


Many folks whose native tongue is not English do read and post here.
IMO allowances for nonfluency are indeed made here, sometimes with
helpful hints to a poster in the interest of improving their English,
thus their effective communication here.


Grammar.

No, but the language officially used in clc is indeed English.


What skepticism? The several Indian programmers I've met
were almost all extremely knowledgable about programming.
I think this could be because an Indian individual typically
exercises more discipline with regard to learning, as opposed
to the typical American.



Fear? Huh?


So why do you continue the thread?


I'm not hurt, but I will say that I think your ideas expressed
in your post represent misconceptions.

As for myself, I'd be very pleased to see all 'national' borders
completely disappear. Just five or six billion *individuals*
all respecting one another's individual rights, associating when
they desire, or not, when they don't.

-Mike

if ( u_love( _C ) )
honk();

 

[Morris Dovey]

> [ Default User (Brian Rodenborn) wrote: ]

While annoying, I see plenty of good old 'Mericans doing the
same thing. The one I wonder about is the frequent use of
the word "doubt" to mean "question". Is this something being
taught in English classes in India? It happens so frequently
that I wonder.

the bottom line is .. AMERICA rules ..

Eh? This seems to me a very strange conclusion to draw from any
of the articles (including Brian's) posted thus far...

we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C
language, and as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a
English speaking country ... so excuse people like you excuse
people from non-english speaking countries.And this is not a
english(queen's) grammer teaching newsgroup.

True, there isn't a requirement that one be grammatically correct
in order to learn /anything/. I would suggest, however, that
learning might be facilitated by clear communication; and that
clear communication is, in turn, facilitated by the use of
language that does not distract from the message content.

Comp.lang.c (and other technical newsgroups) seem to value clear,
concise (and conventional) language skills. One of the norms of
the group is that articles/postings be in English. From time to
time people have been asked not to use extreme abbreviation in
their articles. Neither the norm nor the requests for
conventional language use have been directed toward them because
of their nationality.

Joona and Brian are both frequent posters to comp.lang.c; and
I've never seen evidence in any of their posts to indicate bias
against anyone because of their nationality. I think both asked
questions, not to offend, but because they each hoped to learn
something.

I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.
Probably there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is
always fear .

I'm not sure there is any (general) skepticism. My personal guess
would be that about half are above average and about half are
below average. If you tell me that <any nationality> programmers
are either all above average or all below average, /then/ I might
have reason to be skeptical...

And are there no issues left that we need to discuss these issues.

Oh, sorry. I'm a maverick who finds "unfair" and "unjust" topical
- because they seriously impair any group's ability to function.

 

[Anupam]

I find it difficult to believe that anyone posting here must make that
choice.

<OT>
Oh I assure you that you have no idea. I know people in the IITs and
BITS Pilani which are among the premier institutions of India who
properly go on one meal a day to support their education.
Let me tell you about an incident in an engineering college here. It
is a tradition in the under-grad colleges that freshers have to face a
round of introductions before being inducted into the college
community. So my elder brother was getting a junior freshman to
introduce himself. Everything was done and over with. Now at the end
of the session he decided to treat this chap to a nice dinner to have
everything straightened out. So he invited him over to a nearby
restaurant for a big dinner. Till now the guy was pretty cool about
stuff. But now he refused to touch the food. This inspite of the fact
that he was a freshman and it is not exactly politically correct to
refuse anything to a senior. At this my brother pressed a bit at him.
He broke into tears and said that his family had sold their entire
farmland for securing him an admission to BITS. He said that it would
be vulgar of him to partake of such an enormous meal when his family
have to live on menial labour and possibly only one meal a day. Where
would you think this guy would have achance to learn the Queen's
English. The motivation which got him into BITS was good enough. To
expect him to have perfect English sense would be an overkill. By the
way I'm sure he would now be a high placed individual with a great
deal of academic and career-wise success coming his way.
<\OT>

 

[James Hu]

we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C language,

However, it makes it easier to communicate with each other.

and
as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a English speaking country

I thought English was one of the official languages in India.

-- James

 

[Anupam]

<snipped>
<OT>
At the end of this sick series of messages I would only like to say
that this discussion has shaken me to the core. There is a lot of
hatred around. that is all I can see. I would not like to contribute
to this any more. I will only reply further in this thread if there is
a factual misrepresentation anywhere. Pardon my English and may God
forgive you for your intolerant attitude.
As far as Joona Palaste goes, I respect this person's knowledge of
the C programming language and postings on even my school groups
mention your website as a good resource to look into.I have enjoyed a
lot of beautiful discussions on the C language in all its infinite
breadth since I joined this group. I am highly saddened by the turn
this has taken. And yet I have admired many things about western
countries. But in the year 2003, all that you still see are
reflections of the groupisms of the real world. One would expect that
we as a race of humans would have learnt.. or learned (I don't care..
I am not a linguistic God ... at no point of time have I said I am)
from our experiences in the real world ... from wars which have still
left there scars from times much before my birth ... from the
thousands of people dead and dying and living in pitiable conditions
across the globe even as I type ... and why?... only due to an
amplification of the traits seen here.
As far as one of my countrymen remarked, I would only like to say
that I respect my country a lot... but beyond that I respect my world
... and even beyond that the Truth. Please infer the meaning inherent
in my remarks after looking through this sieve.
<\OT>

 

[Richard Heathfield]

I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
that one mistake sticks out. [...]

Crap like that seems to be acceptable in "chat rooms".

Not in the channels I use. People using such lame abbreviations are
generally kicked (or even banned), unless there are extreme mitigating
circumstances.

 

[Anupam]

i do agree with anupam. but he seems to have a very poor image of his
country as a third world country. come on man be proud to be an
indian. we do what we do because we are the best and programming is
one feild where we are the trend setters. so who cannot bear with us
and our whims can go to hell. i am sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but
that's the way it is. we don't need extensive support structure to
make us the best programmers in the world. we do it on our own without
any outside help and mostly with outdated computers. but let me tell
you my most out dated computer will outrun your fastest computer
anyday. so just learn to live with it.
anuj
(e-mail address removed)

First of all please do not live inside a self-imposed bubble of the
ever endearing city life. Who said that money is the be-all and
end-all. Satisfaction is what the poor farmer has.. much beyond what
u and i do. Think about it. A splintered life with all the money and
all the conveniences but no truth. Oh village life is one big peace of
mind. Be there.. then you will understand. Many of the people here and
everywhere get frustrated and done in when they think about where it
is going. What the hell are you doing anyway...Coding for 10 years ...
then becoming a manager. Marrying ..producing kids... and dying at the
age of 60... Living the same live as countless others.. Financial
poverty can enrich.. believe me.
A good programmer.. a really good one.. is in it for other things
besides money.
No one country is the trend setter in anything. No community is good
at programming as a whole... thats . I just wanted to correct a
misconception that someone had. Just look at a people posting on this
group and you will see a veritable cross-section of the world.

 

[dfg]

Could you explain where the "distinction between Indian people" is made?

Jirka

Now that I look, perhaps there is none. The post from Joona really
bothered me at first and I should not have written a reply as quickly as
I did.

All said and done however, I believe that this post should have been
worded much more carefully. It was quite unlike his regular postings.

 

[Jirka Klaue]

Now that I look, perhaps there is none. The post from Joona really
bothered me at first and I should not have written a reply as quickly as
I did.

All said and done however, I believe that this post should have been
worded much more carefully.

He shouldn't have posted this at all.

It was quite unlike his regular postings.

It's not the first of this kind, though.

Jirka

 

[Richard Heathfield]

<OT>
Oh I assure you that you have no idea.

Oh I assure you that he does. The choice is not between grammar and food
(which would be like choosing between a tractor and the President of
Italy), but between clear and unclear communication.

Those who seek help would do well to communicate clearly with those from
whom they seek help.

Most of those who provide help in this newsgroup are very patient with those
for whom English is not their first language, and rightly so. Nobody here
expects perfect grammar, spelling, and punctuation in every article.
Indeed, it is generally considered unacceptable to criticise someone's
article purely on spelling grounds. But where the writer is *deliberately*
obfuscating the communication for mere reasons of so-called "style", he is
abusing the newsgroup, and it is perfectly sensible to ask him to drop the
133tn3s5 and write intelligibly.

 

[Richard Heathfield]

<snipped>
<OT>
At the end of this sick series of messages

You are over-reacting.

I would only like to say
that this discussion has shaken me to the core.

It shouldn't have done.

There is a lot of hatred around.

Only of inane abbreviations like "u" for "you".

that is all I can see.

Then try opening your eyes.

I would not like to contribute
to this any more.

Then don't. All you are contributing is incomprehension.

<rant snipped>

 

[Randy Howard]

Hello,
Not at all ,I would say that this slang we have learnt from westerners
while we communicate with them. They most of the times use "u" for
"you","coz" for "because",and many more.

It seems that you are communicating with the wrong westerners.

I think this makes communication rather informal and it also is stylish..

Far, far from stylish.

Of course nowadays it has become a trend to use these slangs.

Sadly, you may be correct, at least with the "youth", which undoubtedly
says nothing positive about our future.

Do you agree with it?

Definitely not.

 

[Mark Haigh]

Joona I Palaste <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

At the end of this sick series of messages I would only like to say
that this discussion has shaken me to the core. There is a lot of
hatred around. that is all I can see. I would not like to contribute
to this any more.

Piss off then. You're going to have to grow a thicker skin if you are
going to last here on Usenet.

from our experiences in the real world ... from wars which have still
left there scars from times much before my birth ... from the
thousands of people dead and dying and living in pitiable conditions
across the globe even as I type ... and why?... only due to an
amplification of the traits seen here.

There's quite a difference between wars, people dying, etc, and an
offtopic Usenet thread. Get some perspective.

Except for Dan Pop, everybody occasionally posts the wrong thing to the
wrong group. Since Joona has been a regular poster here for several
years, most of the regulars will give him a mulligan this time, and save
the flames for the next occasion.

Certainly nobody is begging you to stay, particularly if you persist in
being overly sensitive about something that should not upset any normal
adult person.


Mark F. Haigh
(e-mail address removed)

 

[J. J. Farrell]

the bottom line is .. AMERICA rules ..

How do you derive this from the post you quote, or from any other
of the messages in this thread? I've only seen one message in this
thread proposing some mindless idea of one nation's superiority
to others, and that message wasn't promoting the USA. This was a
discussion of apparently deliberate decisions to use silly
abbreviations, and has moved to a discussion of different meanings
of the same words in various versions of English.

we dont have to be grammatically correct to learn the C language, and
as far as posting is concerned INDIA is not a English speaking country
.. so excuse people like you excuse people from non-english speaking
countries.And this is not a english(queen's) grammer teaching
newsgroup.

Indeed. Many people here go to considerable trouble to help people
who appear to have difficulty with English. The issue is not people's
lack of English skills, it is people's deliberate use of silly
abbreviations which hinder communication.

I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.Probably
there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is always fear .

What scepticism over Indian programmers? I've not seen any in this
thread. Could you provide some examples?

 

[Grumble]

I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
schools to teach mangled English or something?

Joona,

A masterful troll. It should be archived for posterity! ;-)

 

[Jirka Klaue]

J. J. Farrell wrote:
....

What scepticism over Indian programmers? I've not seen any in this
thread. Could you provide some examples?

Huh? How did this thread start?

JP> Why is it that *every single* Indian C programmer
JP> I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u" for "you"?

JP> Do they have a law in India forcing schools to
JP> teach mangled English or something?

Does this count as scepticism?

Jirka

 

[Chris Dollin]

You may have to explain that reference...

Erm ... I made no special reference, but I think my quest for neat
(stylish?) metaphor got derailed.

"Stylish" doesn't have to mean "good", just as yoghurt in the engine
oil doesn't have to be good - and when noticable, may be bad.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
schools to teach mangled English or something?

And in what way is this any more offensive than the abbreviations that
you use all the time?

Do they have a law in Finland forcing you to make sweeping
generalisations and behave like a bigoted jerk, or something?

 

[J. J. Farrell]

J. J. Farrell wrote:
...

Huh? How did this thread start?

JP> Why is it that *every single* Indian C programmer
JP> I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u" for "you"?

JP> Do they have a law in India forcing schools to
JP> teach mangled English or something?

Does this count as scepticism?

In reference to pandapower saying

I dont understand the skepticism over indian programmers.Probably
there is some deep rooted fear.The root of anger is always fear .

Hmmm ... depends what pandapower meant by the term. I took
it to mean some question being raised over Indian programmers'
competence as programmers, and I've not seen that. If he
was referring to Joona's original message, then Joona clearly
gives his reasons for it in the message itself - he referred
to Indians in particular because he perceived that all messages
he'd seen from Indians showed the issue.

I think Joona was wrong, but not greatly so. I've noticed a
substantial increase in this usage recently, and I've noticed
that a lot of posters who appear to be Indian are using it.
It's certainly not all Indians, nor is it exclusively Indians.
I'd be interested to know why it appears to have become a
fairly common usage among Indian programmers. It wouldn't be
surprising if people found Joona's suggested reason to be
offensive, though it was clearly meant as joke.