Purchasing The Standard

A

Alexander Terekhov

JKop wrote:
[...]
JKop + @ + eircom + . + net

I can pass other to you that Balmer's copy. But it's C99, not C++. I
don't have a spare C++ copy and I won't buy one for you. But I can
lend you my copy for a week or two. Given that I don't know you [and
that I'll have to delete my own copy], I'll need a bond. Just 18
bucks. IBAN/BIC: DE09 7001 0080 0810 4648 09 PBNKDEFF.

regards,
alexander.
 
T

tom_usenet

I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?

$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
for schools in many poor countries.

I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
$18, regardless of where they live.

Tom
 
J

JKop

tom_usenet posted:
I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
$18, regardless of where they live.


Bullshit.

What if a little kid in Calcutta likes programming in C++? They make less
than 50cents a day over there.

Should the kid not eat for 36 days? Or should the kid only eat half as much
and wait 72 days?


My perrogative: Why pay for something when you don't have to?


-JKop
 
P

Peter van Merkerk

JKop said:
tom_usenet posted:



Bullshit.

What if a little kid in Calcutta likes programming in C++? They make less
than 50cents a day over there.

Bullshit.

If a kid only makes 50 cents a day it is unlikely that that kid:
1. Knows about C++;
2. Wants to learn C++;
3. Can afford the facilities needed (like a PC, electricity...etc).

And even if that kid knows about C++, wants to learn it and can for some
reason afford a PC and the other stuff needed, the C++ standard would be
of little or no use to him or her (or anyone else wanting to learn C++).

It seems that many people who don't have access to that document greatly
overrate its usefulness. For most people this document is more a luxury
than a necessity. Time and (in your case optionally) money is usually
better spend on a good C++ book.
Should the kid not eat for 36 days? Or should the kid only eat half as much
and wait 72 days?

If the situation is that desperate obtaining a copy of the C++ standard
would be one of the last things on his or her mind, if at all.
My perrogative: Why pay for something when you don't have to?

So you don't mind if I take your possessions? If that is your
prerogative why bother to learn something (like C++) and/or work if you
just take what you want?
 
P

Pete Becker

Alexander said:
Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
Just plain theft. 18 USC 2314 is not the only statute that makes taking
things that don't belong to you a crime, fact free quotes from "Mark
Rasch at The Reg" notwithstanding.

Fact free? Go read the decision (starting at "pagina=1").

How will that add facts to the quote from "Mark Rasch at the Reg"?
 
P

P.J. Plauger

:
[...]
I can't say your ethical credentials are high enough for me

You mean

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/notice.cgi?NoticeID=320

<?>

No. Trust me, you don't want to pursue this topic any further
in this public forum.
Fair use.


Read DOWLING v. UNITED STATES, 473 U.S. 207 (1985).

(You're the only person I know who quibbles by footnote.)

Just keep rationalizing. My hand is firmly over my wallet pocket.

P.J. Plauger
Dinkumware, Ltd.
http://www.dinkumware.com
 
A

Alexander Terekhov

Pete Becker wrote:

[... just plan theft/Dowling ...]
How will that add facts to the quote from "Mark Rasch at the Reg"?

You'll discover the facts Rash was talking about. Copyright
infringment may be criminal [not only subject to civil penalties],
but it doesn't make it "just plain theft".

regards,
alexander.
 
P

Pete Becker

Alexander said:
Pete Becker wrote:

[... just plan theft/Dowling ...]
How will that add facts to the quote from "Mark Rasch at the Reg"?

You'll discover the facts Rash was talking about.

Since you snipped the words that I actually used, I'll repeat them:

Explain, please, how reading something will turn fact free quotes from
"Mark Rasch at The Reg" into fact filled quotes.
Copyright
infringment may be criminal [not only subject to civil penalties],
but it doesn't make it "just plain theft".

A distinction without a difference, if it exists at all.
 
A

Alexander Terekhov

Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
A distinction without a difference, if it exists at all.

Read the decision (and the quote). Here's another quote:

<quote source=digital-law-online.info>

Section 506 makes a number of things criminal offenses, including
fraudulent copyright notices, fraudulent removal of copyright notices,
and making false statements in a copyright registration application.
{FN85: 17 U.S.C. §506} But it primarily criminalizes copyright
infringement when it is done "willfully" and either "for purposes of
commercial advantage or private financial gain” or when the
infringement exceeds a total retail value of $1,000 within any 180-
day period. If the total retail value exceeds $2,500 and ten copies,
the crime becomes a felony with the possibility of a $250,000 fine and
five years in prison (ten years on a second offense), {FN86: 18 U.S.C.
§2319} although the sentencing guidelines require that the retail
value be substantially above $2,500 for any prison time, and in the
millions to reach the maximum penalty.

Although the copyright statutes do not contain a definition for
"willfully," the term has been given meaning in a number of past
court decisions on copyright and other law. At the passage of the
latest amendment to the criminal provision, Senator Orrin Hatch, the
Chairman of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, discussed the
importance of the willfulness requirement:

I place great store by the "willfulness" requirement in the bill.
Although there is on-going debate about what precisely is the
"willfulness" standard in the Copyright Act – as the House Report
records – I submit that in the LaMacchia context "willful" ought to
mean the intent to violate a known legal duty. The Supreme Court has
given the term "willful" that construction in numerous cases in the
past 25 years . . . As Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, that is
the interpretation that I give to this term. Otherwise, I would have
objected and not allowed this bill to pass by unanimous consent.
Under this standard, then, an educator who in good faith believes
that he or she is engaging in a fair use of copyrighted material
could not be prosecuted under the bill. . . .

Finally, Mr. President, I would like to point out two areas that
are susceptible to interpretation mischief.

First, the bill amends the term "financial gain" as used in the
Copyright Act to include "receipt, or expectation of receipt, of
anything of value, including receipt of other copyrighted works."
The intent of the change is to hold criminally liable those who do
not receive or expect to receive money but who receive tangible
value. It would be contrary to the intent of the provision,
according to my understanding, if "anything of value" would be so
broadly read as to include enhancement of reputation or value
remote from the criminal act, such as a job promotion. {FN87: 143
Cong. Rec. S12689-S12690}

</quote>

See the difference?

regards,
alexander.
 
P

Pete Becker

Alexander said:
[lengthy quote describing elementary legal concept of mens rea snipped]

See the difference?

Where does it say that violating criminal laws pertaining to copyright
isn't theft?
 
J

JKop

Peter van Merkerk posted:
If a kid only makes 50 cents a day it is unlikely that that kid:
1. Knows about C++;

The miracle of speech.
2. Wants to learn C++;

The miracle of wanting to learn.
3. Can afford the facilities needed (like a PC, electricity...etc).

Maybe the corrupt government is spending food money on computers.
And even if that kid knows about C++, wants to learn it and can for
some reason afford a PC and the other stuff needed, the C++ standard
would be of little or no use to him or her (or anyone else wanting to
learn C++).

Doesn't mean he still doesn't want it.
It seems that many people who don't have access to that document
greatly overrate its usefulness. For most people this document is more
a luxury than a necessity. Time and (in your case optionally) money is
usually better spend on a good C++ book.

We've already established that I wouldn't spend money on the document.
If the situation is that desperate obtaining a copy of the C++ standard
would be one of the last things on his or her mind, if at all.
Psychologist?


So you don't mind if I take your possessions?

When and where did I suggest that this?
If that is your prerogative why bother to learn something (like C++)
and/or work if you just take what you want?

I play with C++. It's my toy. I use it for fun.

The laws of physics, human instinct. I can't explain how my mind works, I
didn't design it.

-JKop
 
P

Pete Becker

Alexander said:
Pete said:
Alexander said:
[lengthy quote describing elementary legal concept of mens rea snipped]

See the difference?

Where does it say that violating criminal laws pertaining to copyright
isn't theft?

What criminal laws?

The ones that the text you quoted was discussing.
Where does it say that violating copyright law
isn't genocide or terrorism?

It doesn't.
So it must be both, right?

No, it simply doesn't say. Hardly support for your position that
violating copyright laws isn't theft.
 
A

Alexander Terekhov

JKop said:
USA law doesn't apply in Ireland.

Yeah. Read your Copyright Act, Edition 2000. For example,

http://www.efc.ie/publications/legal_updates/articles/it/update_ireland.html

<quote>

Copyright owners have recently advertised offering rewards for
information which identifies copyright piracy (source - Irish Times).
The targets probably are businesses which use computer software
without a licence. There are draconian fines and terms of
imprisonment for those found guilty of copyright infringement
(Copyright Act, 2000). Officers who tolerate infringement are
personally liable for the misfeasance of their companies.

</quote>

regards,
alexander.
 

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