Purchasing The Standard

A

Alexander Terekhov

Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
No, it simply doesn't say. Hardly support for your position that
violating copyright laws isn't theft.

My,

<quote>

Dowling does not contest that he caused the shipment of goods in
interstate commerce, or that the shipments had sufficient value to
meet the monetary requirement. He argues, instead, that the goods
shipped were not "stolen, converted or taken by fraud."

[...]

In contrast, the Government's theory here would make theft,
conversion, or fraud equivalent to wrongful appropriation of
statutorily protected rights in copyright. The copyright owner,
however, holds no ordinary chattel. A copyright, like other
intellectual property, comprises a series of carefully defined
and carefully delimited interests to which the law affords
correspondingly exact protections. "Section 106 of the Copyright
Act confers a bundle of exclusive rights [473 U.S. 207, 217] to
the owner of the copyright," which include the rights "to publish,
copy, and distribute the author's work." Harper & Row, Publishers,
Inc. v. Nation Enterprises, 471 U.S. 539, 546 -547 (1985). See 17
U.S.C. 106. However, "[t]his protection has never accorded the
copyright owner complete control over all possible uses of his
work." Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417,
432 (1984); id., at 462-463 (dissenting opinion). For example,
107 of the Copyright Act "codifies the traditional privilege of
other authors to make `fair use' of an earlier writer's work."
Harper & Row, supra, at 547. Likewise, 115 grants compulsory
licenses in nondramatic musical works. Thus, the property rights
of a copyright holder have a character distinct from the
possessory interest of the owner of simple "goods, wares, [or]
merchandise," for the copyright holder's dominion is subjected to
precisely defined limits.

It follows that interference with copyright does not easily equate
with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs
a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a
copyright: "`Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of
the copyright owner,' that is, anyone who trespasses into his
exclusive domain by using or authorizing the use of the copyrighted
work in one of the five ways set forth in the statute, `is an
infringer of the copyright.

[...]

The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to
the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control
over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use.
While one may colloquially link infringement with some general
notion of wrongful [473 U.S. 207, 218] appropriation, infringement
plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than
does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud. As a result, it
fits but awkwardly with the language Congress chose - "stolen,
converted or taken by fraud"

</quote>

regards,
alexander.
 
P

Pete Becker

Alexander said:
Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
No, it simply doesn't say. Hardly support for your position that
violating copyright laws isn't theft.

My,

<quote>

I'm really not interested in playing "Name that Quote" any longer. The
quotes you supplied previously did nothing to support your position, but
at least had the attribute of having citations adequate to make a
preliminary assessment of their relevance. Now you've thrown in yet
another quote, but without accompanying information.
 
A

Alexander Terekhov

Pete Becker wrote:
[...]
I'm really not interested in playing "Name that Quote" any longer. The
quotes you supplied previously did nothing to support your position,

They did. You just need to follow the [embedded] links and read the
stuff to see it.
but
at least had the attribute of having citations adequate to make a
preliminary assessment of their relevance. Now you've thrown in yet
another quote, but without accompanying information.

http://groups.google.com/[email protected]

regards,
alexander.
 
P

puppet_sock

Mats Weber said:
I think the standard should be available for free in electronic form, as
is the case for the Ada standard, which is an ISO standard just as C++
is. If it can be done for Ada, why can it not be done for C++ ?

$65, or $18 payable by credit card for a download, puts it out of reach
for schools in many poor countries.

I think any software Mats Weber's writes should be available for
free download for his entire life. This should be a condition of
any employment he ever gets.

Charging money for his work makes it out of the reach of many poor
people, whether the country be poor or not.

Then, it's altogether likely nobody wants it anyway.
Socks
 
J

Julie

tom_usenet said:
I think that anyone who *needs* a copy of the C++ standard can afford
$18, regardless of where they live.

I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.

There are plenty of other document formats that are out there that should be
used for information retrieval documents such as the standard. In my mind, the
standard has immensely valuable content, but is rendered virtually useless by
the delivery format.
 
I

Ioannis Vranos

JKop said:
Alexander, sharing is caring!


JKop + @ + eircom + . + net


Have you checked the web? The URL that I provided? If you haven't
figured such simple things out yet, perhaps you should move to C#.






Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
 
I

Ioannis Vranos

Julie said:
I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.

There are plenty of other document formats that are out there that should be
used for information retrieval documents such as the standard. In my mind, the
standard has immensely valuable content, but is rendered virtually useless by
the delivery format.


Adobe Reader 6.x is perfect to read the standard, and its search
functionality is very good. I suggest you install it, even if you have
an older version of the complete acrobat (the program that makes the pdfs).






Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
 
P

Pete C.

JKop said:
Pete Becker posted:


Let's see. Theft is where someone-one deprives someone-else of a
possession. If I thieve your car, I am depriving you of your car.

If I copy your copy of the C++ Standard, am I depriving you of it?

You're depriving ANSI of their copyright royalties. Real money.
If
not, then that's not good old run-of-the-mill "plain theft". And if
it is theft at all, what label would you give it?

If I call it "Just plain love", is it better?

Nope; it's "just plain theft".

- Pete
 
O

Owen Jacobson

I'm really not interested in playing "Name that Quote" any longer. The
quotes you supplied previously did nothing to support your position, but
at least had the attribute of having citations adequate to make a
preliminary assessment of their relevance. Now you've thrown in yet
another quote, but without accompanying information.

I've been staying out of this, even though (like many people here, I'm
sure) copyright law is a pet peeve of mine, but, really, you keep using
that word; it does not mean what you think it means.

Copyright infringement is a crime. It is the process of violating the
rights over distribution we have chosen to grant the creator or creators
of a work. There are codified definitions and punishments for this crime.
Theft is a crime. It is the process of depriving someone of their
property[0]. There are codified definitions and punishments for this
crime, as well. They are not the same thing, and never have been, PR
campaigns by certain parties to the contrary notwithstanding.

Please find for yourself the legal definitions of these two crimes, and
compare.

All of these words have meanings. Please use the words that actually mean
what you're saying.

[0] Depriving someone of income from the sale or liscence of a work is
also not theft. Not right or just, but not theft, either.
 
T

tom_usenet

We've already established that I wouldn't spend money on the document.

Most of us make our money from software, and therefore hate pirates in
the same way that retailers hate shop lifters. Sadly, my news reader
doesn't have a killfile facility.

Tom
 
T

tom_usenet

I'd *gladly* pay $18 or more for a **USABLE** format. PDF is one of the worst
online formats for information retrieval. Navigating is horrible, searching is
painful (if enabled), viewing is completely subjective to the (weak!) version
of Acrobat that you are using. PDF is good for one thing: formatting a
document in a portable way to distribute for (formatted) printing.

The C++ standard PDF is fine - it has a complete bookmark set, and the
search facilities work well enough (particularly with Acrobat 6.0),
though it could do with regular expression searching and links. My
main problem with .pdfs is that Acrobat takes significantly longer to
start with each successive release. I should not be waiting 20 seconds
on a decent spec machine just to view a local document.
There are plenty of other document formats that are out there that should be
used for information retrieval documents such as the standard. In my mind, the
standard has immensely valuable content, but is rendered virtually useless by
the delivery format.

Why useless? You can even (with more recent copies), cut and paste the
entire contents into another document. I have the copy disabled 1998
one, so I copied the whole lot (using ghost) into a text file, just so
I can copy and paste into postings (what a sad life I lead).

I think the main reason they went with PDF was copyright - each PDF
they sell is uniquely watermarked to say who bought it (and therefore
who is passing it around illegally).

Tom
 
J

JKop

Pete C. posted:
You're depriving ANSI of their copyright royalties. Real money.

One can not be deprived of what one does not have.

If I take a dog's food, I'm depriving him of food.

If I refuse to give a dog food, I'm NOT depriving him of food.

Nope; it's "just plain theft".


And you're just a plain fool.


-JKop
 
J

Julie

tom_usenet said:
The C++ standard PDF is fine - it has a complete bookmark set, and the
search facilities work well enough (particularly with Acrobat 6.0),
though it could do with regular expression searching and links. My
main problem with .pdfs is that Acrobat takes significantly longer to
start with each successive release. I should not be waiting 20 seconds
on a decent spec machine just to view a local document.

Are you saying that PDF is a great format for the retrieval of information?

I've said that there are far better formats available. I'd consider HTML the
bottom of the barrel, but far superior to PDF.

PDF is fine for what I said: formatting a document for portable (formatted)
printing. I'd be willing to stop there, but feel free to name any other
superior uses of PDF above and beyond this that benefits the *user/consumer* of
the contained information.
Why useless? You can even (with more recent copies), cut and paste the
entire contents into another document. I have the copy disabled 1998
one, so I copied the whole lot (using ghost) into a text file, just so
I can copy and paste into postings (what a sad life I lead).

Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content? Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly described
why the PDF content is less than usable.
I think the main reason they went with PDF was copyright - each PDF
they sell is uniquely watermarked to say who bought it (and therefore
who is passing it around illegally).

I'm not a fan of the 'punish the majority on behalf of the minority criminal'.
Like I said, the utility value of the content is greatly reduced w/ such a
restrictive format such as PDF.
 
I

Ioannis Vranos

Julie said:
Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content? Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly described
why the PDF content is less than usable.



I think there should be a special version for Language Lawyers. :)






Regards,

Ioannis Vranos

## C++ Language Lawyer :)
 
I

Ioannis Vranos

Ioannis said:
I think there should be a special version for Language Lawyers. :)






Regards,

Ioannis Vranos

## C++ Language Lawyer :)




BTW, the term "language lawyers" is used by people who do not like
getting into the details of the language.






Regards,

Ioannis Vranos
 
T

tom_usenet

Are you saying that PDF is a great format for the retrieval of information?

No, but it is ok; I have no trouble quickly finding what I'm looking
for, thanks to the nice contents bookmarks (which many PDFs lack).
I've already mentioned the only two limitations that affect me.
Did the copyright owner license you to copy the locked content?

I dare say this comes under "fair use".
Probably not,
and if we are to adhere to the original intent, you have perfectly described
why the PDF content is less than usable.

The original intent of what? Making it copy locked?
I'm not a fan of the 'punish the majority on behalf of the minority criminal'.

I think copying of the standard is fairly rife as it is. If the format
wasn't traceable to the buyer, I suspect it would be a lot worse.
Like I said, the utility value of the content is greatly reduced w/ such a
restrictive format such as PDF.

You've said that, but you haven't yet backed it up. Are you unable to
find what you're looking for? Why? How would another format help? I've
not heard your complaint before from others, which implies that most
are not finding it too much of a problem.

Tom
 
J

Julie

tom_usenet said:
No, but it is ok; I have no trouble quickly finding what I'm looking
for, thanks to the nice contents bookmarks (which many PDFs lack).
I've already mentioned the only two limitations that affect me.


I dare say this comes under "fair use".

I highly doubt that -- you are deliberately circumventing the imposed
protection scheme. I'm no expert on the subject, but I'd say that you are
either violating the copyright license or getting into a very gray area. Now
take into account the disgusting piece of legislation called the DMCA and
similar (pending) legislation, you just lost your case.
The original intent of what? Making it copy locked?

Presumably the author locked the content for a reason -- to prohibit copying of
the text. You circumvented that, and I'd venture to say, violated your
license. If you have any further questions about this, don't bother asking me
as I'm no expert, just offering my opinion, but go directly to the source.
Contact the committee and ask if what you did is within your license or legal
rights, in their opinion. I'm sure many would be interested in the response.
I think copying of the standard is fairly rife as it is. If the format
wasn't traceable to the buyer, I suspect it would be a lot worse.


You've said that, but you haven't yet backed it up. Are you unable to
find what you're looking for? Why? How would another format help? I've
not heard your complaint before from others, which implies that most
are not finding it too much of a problem.

I don't have specifics relating to the standard, as I don't own a PDF copy, nor
have I illegitimately (or otherwise) viewed one. However, I have read many PDF
documents (as most have), and find the use of the PDF format terrible for
information retrieval.

That you haven't heard my complaint before implies absolutely nothing other
than you haven't heard my complaint before.

Like I've been saying, and you have been inadvertently supporting, the PDF
format is *not* suitable for information retrieval with so many other
more-useful formats available.
 
T

tom_usenet

I highly doubt that -- you are deliberately circumventing the imposed
protection scheme. I'm no expert on the subject, but I'd say that you are
either violating the copyright license or getting into a very gray area. Now
take into account the disgusting piece of legislation called the DMCA and
similar (pending) legislation, you just lost your case.

However, I didn't circumvent the copy protection of the document,
simply the fact that the text copy functionality is disabled in Adobe
Acrobat. I used Ghostscript, where no such functionality restriction
exists. I don't think this comes under circumventing copy protection.
Until someone decides that Ghostscript is illegal under the DCMA, I
think there's no problem and no infringement.
If you have any further questions about this, don't bother asking me
as I'm no expert, just offering my opinion, but go directly to the source.
Contact the committee and ask if what you did is within your license or legal
rights, in their opinion. I'm sure many would be interested in the response.

They removed the copy protection back in 2000 or so (it seems it was a
mistake), so I doubt they'd have anything to say about it.
I don't have specifics relating to the standard, as I don't own a PDF copy, nor
have I illegitimately (or otherwise) viewed one.

So, in other words, you don't really know what you're talking about.
You can see an HTML version of the draft here:
http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/open/n2356/

(The PDF is superior to that HTML version - the whole document can be
searched rather than just a single chapter, and the contents links are
far finer grained).
However, I have read many PDF
documents (as most have), and find the use of the PDF format terrible for
information retrieval.

Again, in what way do you find it terrible? You're great at making
unsupported assertions - I've noted it in other threads, where
eventually you gracelessly admit you're wrong.
That you haven't heard my complaint before implies absolutely nothing other
than you haven't heard my complaint before.

Given that I regularly read comp.std.c++, it implies that no one else
is bothered. The only complaints I have heard in 4 or 5 years are
about the $18 cost and the fact that the old .PDF was text copy
disabled.
Like I've been saying, and you have been inadvertently supporting, the PDF
format is *not* suitable for information retrieval with so many other
more-useful formats available.

But you still haven't given one concrete fact to support this. Is a
book a terrible format for information retrieval? Why would anyone buy
a textbook? A PDF is just a book with instant contents navigation and
a text search facility...

Tom
 

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