"Python" is not a good name, should rename to "Athon"

[Russ P.]

On Dec 3, 5:23 am, Steven D'Aprano

I'm not suggesting that Leibniz was any more of a scientist than Newton
was, nor am I suggesting that Newton's achievements should be *rejected*
(er, except for those pesky Quantum Mechanics and Relativity things...).
I'm just saying that we should understand Newton for what he actually
was, and not based on the 18th Century revisionism.

Your claim that Newton was "not a scientist" says more about you than
it does about him. He is widely regarded -- by physicists and many
other scientists -- not only as a scientist, but as the most important
one who ever lived.

That is obviously a matter of opinion, so it would be rather silly to
argue the matter. But the idea that he was not even a scientist is one
that I have never heard from anyone but you.

Why anyone would hold a personal grudge against someone who lived
centuries ago is beyond me. I suspect it is perhaps because you don't
care for Newton's theology.

As for that "pesky relativity thing," some physicists claim that
Newton's physics (as opposed to interpretations, simplifications, and
revisions by others) were actually consistent with relativity. I think
Newton was smarter than you realize.

His name would be a great honor for a programming to have. But, alas,
it appears that many in the Python community prefer a snake that is
half the name of a comedy team. So be it. As I said before, a name is
just a name. It might as well be called "cockroach" as far as I am
concerned.

 

[Neil Cerutti]

On Dec 3, 5:23 am, Steven D'Aprano

Your claim that Newton was "not a scientist" says more about
you than it does about him. He is widely regarded -- by
physicists and many other scientists -- not only as a
scientist, but as the most important one who ever lived.

To paraphrase Bertrand Russell, Newton was too successful.
Over-veneration of Newton was eventually an impediment to
progress--this was not, of course, his fault.

 

[Francesco Guerrieri]

As I said before, a name is
just a name. It might as well be called "cockroach" as far as I am
concerned.

Unluckily "the Beatles" was already taken

francesco

 

[cokofreedom]

The only reason to change the name would be because of some serious
bad PR that came onto Python, thus causing its branding name to be
catagorized as something bad.

However this is not the case, presently, and the brand name is well
established and accepted. There is no reason to change its name and
while this conversation has now turned completely off this, I do not
know why you dislike it so much.

It is a rather catchy, easy to spell and say name, that "rolls off the
tongue". Frankly all the other suggested names just do not fit to me.

Why change what isn't broken?

 

[Russ P.]

The only reason to change the name would be because of some serious
bad PR that came onto Python, thus causing its branding name to be
catagorized as something bad.

However this is not the case, presently, and the brand name is well
established and accepted. There is no reason to change its name and
while this conversation has now turned completely off this, I do not
know why you dislike it so much.

It is a rather catchy, easy to spell and say name, that "rolls off the
tongue". Frankly all the other suggested names just do not fit to me.

Why change what isn't broken?

You are probably right, but let me just explain one more time why I
think a name change is worth considering, then I'll drop it.

I'm thinking about the first impression people get when they hear the
name. Python is a "funny" name -- in both senses of the word. No? Then
why did a comedy team adopt it?

You and the others here don't think it's funny because you are used to
it, but when someone hears it for the first time as the name of a
programming language, they thinks it's just a bit funny. Many other
programming languages have funny names too, so it is considered normal
-- by software people, but not necessarily by the general public.

When someone proposes that Python be considered for use by an
organization that has little or no knowledge of it, first impressions
can make a difference. When managers hear "Python" for the first time,
I'm afraid they are not inclined to consider it a serious language.
And they usually need a serious language for a serious problem. The
barrier to initial consideration is therefore just a bit higher than
it needs to be. And that barrier can be subconscious, so that no one
even realizes it exists.

I know this because I've been through it myself. When I tell people
that I use Python, I often qualify it by pointing out that it is used
extensively at Google. In other words, I'm banking on the reputation
of Google to offset the goofiness of the "Python" name.

Come to think of it, maybe it should be called "Googlang" or "Googon"?

 

[Tóth Csaba]

Russ P. írta:

Python is a "funny" name -- in both senses of the word. No? Then
why did a comedy team adopt it?

Python name is not funny for me. Even the Monty Python, because its hard
to translate their jokes, and in my country they are not so popular.
Just a few ppl knows them.

Newton is a well knowed name in the world, and it is more serious than a
comedy's name. For the past years a comedy's and a funny name maybe was
ok for the language, but now we arrived into a serious era. more bank
and high risk company starts to use it. Its really time to have a better
name than anything what is comes from "funny".

Think to "Pascal". The idea to use a genius's name is well knowed and used.
If Newton is not ok (btw i think it is, he was a genius that time. and i
dont care about personalities, like arrogant.. or what kind of
scientist. that time phisics and math was very close, it hasnt got so
tight border than today.), than look for another great scientist what is
not reserved. But newton is very good: small, sounds well, great
scientist or with another word: genius, already died, etc.

tsabi

 

[Gary Herron]

You are probably right, but let me just explain one more time why I
think a name change is worth considering, then I'll drop it.

Good! (On the "drop it" part. Not so good on the "one more time"
part.) If we ignore it, maybe this thread will dry up and blow away.

 

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

His name would be a great honor for a programming to have. But, alas,
it appears that many in the Python community prefer a snake that is
half the name of a comedy team. So be it. As I said before, a name is
just a name. It might as well be called "cockroach" as far as I am
concerned.

Ah, and now you draw up the shade of Cromwell -- who found the first
four letters offensive and struck them from "polite words": cockroach
became plain roach, **** (fowl) became rooster...
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
(e-mail address removed) (e-mail address removed)
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
(Bestiaria Support Staff: (e-mail address removed))
HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/

 

[Russ P.]

Python name is not funny for me. Even the Monty Python, because its hard
to translate their jokes, and in my country they are not so popular.
Just a few ppl knows them.

I've heard it helps to be stoned out of your mind (i.e., under the
influence of illegal drugs), but I don't necessarily recommend it.

 

[Tóth Csaba]

Russ P. írta:

I've heard it helps to be stoned out of your mind (i.e., under the
influence of illegal drugs), but I don't necessarily recommend it.

back from jokes, im _really_ interested what is core developers, mainly
Guido's opinion about the name change.

tsabi

 

[Robert Kern]

back from jokes, im _really_ interested what is core developers, mainly
Guido's opinion about the name change.

I'm pretty sure it's, "Not a chance."

--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

 

[Tommy Grav]

Russ P. írta:

back from jokes, im _really_ interested what is core developers,
mainly
Guido's opinion about the name change.

I can;t speak for Guido, but believe me when I say that a name change
will not happen!!!! Python is a successful and entrenched name brand.
It makes not sense in the world to change it.

As mentioned before, searching for "Python" in google returns 7 of the
top 10 links to be Python programming links.

This is just "a dead horse", stop beating it!

Cheers
TG

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

(e-mail address removed) a écrit :

Python is a good programming language, but "Python" is not a good
name.

First, python also means snake, Monty Python. If we search "python" in
google, emule, many results are not programming resource. If we search
PHP, all results are programming resource.

Second, python also means snake, snake is not a good thing in western
culture. Many people dislike any things relevant to snake. We must
have high regard for the custom.

Now, python3000 is coming. It's the best time to rename!

Athon is a good candidate, you could provide better names.

In Athon, the first letter "A" could pronounce as [ e ] .

I'm amazed that anyone here answered this obvious troll...

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

To paraphrase Bertrand Russell, Newton was too successful.
Over-veneration of Newton was eventually an impediment to progress--this
was not, of course, his fault.

Given that the veneration of Newton was very much a product of Newton's
efforts at self-promotion, there's a good case to make that it was his
fault. He was a man of contradictions (as we all are, but he more so than
normal): on the one hand he was secretive and uncommunicative, on the
other he insisted on being given priority whenever possible, even in
doubtful cases, and absolutely refused to share the stage with anyone.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

The fact that someone studies theology does not mean that he cannot also
be considered a scientist.

He didn't just "study" theology, he considered his work on theology and
alchemy vastly more important than his work in natural philosophy. To
Newton, perhaps the most important thing a natural philosopher could do
was rediscover the wisdom of the ancients -- an attitude diametrically
opposed to the rationalist, scientific viewpoint of the Enlightenment.

History judges Newton's work completely the opposite he did: his work on
mechanics had lasting impact on physics, while his work on eschatology
(the end of the world) and the Trinity had little influence on his
contemporaries and even less on later generations.

And if the person who discovered the
inverse-square law of universal gravitation is not a "scientist," I
don't know who is.

Science is defined by the process followed, not the result. The lone
genius toiling away in secrecy is not science. It is anathema to science,
*even if the genius turns out to be right*. Newton's secrecy *held back*
science and mathematics for decades.

The process that we call "science" hadn't been invented while Newton was
alive. Newton played an important part of the invention of that process,
but that doesn't make him a scientist. Describing him as a scientist is
an anachronism: to use an ugly word, it is "presentism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)

Newton was to the science of physics what the alchemists were to the
science of chemistry -- an analogy that is especially apt, as Newton was
himself an alchemist. Newton was there at the paradigm shift from the old
magical ways to the new rationalist ways, and to some extent he straddled
the interface, but he was very much a part of the old ways.

We do him a disservice to pretend he was something he wasn't. John
Maynard Keynes, who bought -- and read -- the largest collection of
Newton's writings in the world, described him thusly:

"Newton was not the first of the age of reason. He was the last of the
magicians, the last of the Babylonians and Sumerians, the last great mind
which looked out on the visible and intellectual world with the same eyes
as those who began to build our intellectual inheritance rather less than
10,000 years ago."

Newton was one of the creators of the Enlightenment. But he was a pre-
Enlightenment man: he belonged to the world left behind.

http://www.slate.com/id/2108438/

We can't understand Newton if we interpret him in post-Enlightenment
terms: all that gives us is the 19th Century triumphalist caricature of
Newton-as-rationalist-scientist. That's not the man, that's just the
image -- and an image that Newton himself would have hated.

Unfortunately, there is a tradition in physics of treating that
caricature as real. Scientists themselves are especially prone to it:
even the hard sciences need their myths.

 

[Russ P.]

I'm amazed that anyone here answered this obvious troll...

I doubt the original post was a troll, but the statement above clearly
is.

You are entitled to your opinion about the idea of changing the name
of the language, but calling it a troll is just arrogance on display.

Python3000 is expected to break compatibility with the current Python
anyway, and starting with a new name is not a radical idea. Yes, it
would cause some minor problems, but it is not without merit.

People who are familiar with Python are smart enough to remember a new
name (I hope), and people who are not will take it more seriously when
they hear its name for the first time.

Computer geeks often fail to appreciate how they are viewed by the
outside world. They come up with a great language and give it a joke
for a name, not realizing that the joke is ultimately on them.

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Russ P. a écrit :

I doubt the original post was a troll, but the statement above clearly
is.

Then your trollometer is broken. Got and get yourself a working one.

You are entitled to your opinion about the idea of changing the name
of the language, but calling it a troll is just arrogance on display.

Yes, I'm pretty arrogant. Now what to say about people wanting to trash
more than 10 years of Python advocacy when there starting to pay off
just because they think that Python is not a "serious" name ?

Python3000 is expected to break compatibility with the current Python
anyway, and starting with a new name is not a radical idea. Yes, it
would cause some minor problems, but it is not without merit.

It would cause major problems and is totally devoid of any merit. For
the record, C, C++, and C# are all *jokes* - geek jokes FWIW.

People who are familiar with Python are smart enough to remember a new
name (I hope), and people who are not will take it more seriously when
they hear its name for the first time.

Yadda yadda.

Computer geeks often fail to appreciate how they are viewed by the
outside world. They come up with a great language and give it a joke
for a name, not realizing that the joke is ultimately on them.

Bullshit. Nowadays, anyone serious (since you seem to worry quite a lot
about "being serious") about IT knows what Python is and who uses it.
Heck, even MSVS now has support for Python and there's an official CLR
port of it. Can't get much more "serious" (lol), isn't it ?

Now me stop feeding the troll --->[]

 

[Russ P.]

Given that the veneration of Newton was very much a product of Newton's
efforts at self-promotion, there's a good case to make that it was his
fault. He was a man of contradictions (as we all are, but he more so than
normal): on the one hand he was secretive and uncommunicative, on the
other he insisted on being given priority whenever possible, even in
doubtful cases, and absolutely refused to share the stage with anyone.

My understanding is that Newton was a quiet, reflective guy who
computed mathematical power series by hand to kill time. He was the
college guy studying by himself in the library on Saturday night while
everyone else was out partying. If he was perceived as arrogant, he
was probably just sure he was right. And more often than not, he was.

Newton may or may not be overrated, but I don't know who do you think
you're fooling by claiming that he was "not a scientist." That's just
silly.

 

[Dan Upton]

I doubt the original post was a troll, but the statement above clearly
is.

You are entitled to your opinion about the idea of changing the name
of the language, but calling it a troll is just arrogance on display.

If the OP had made reasonable arguments (many others have covered why
they're not particularly reasonable) or a reasonable suggestion for a
new name, maybe. Such as it is, I'm not convinced it wasn't a
troll...

Computer geeks often fail to appreciate how they are viewed by the
outside world. They come up with a great language and give it a joke
for a name, not realizing that the joke is ultimately on them.

....and thus, maybe the joke is on you? Just to play devil's advocate...

 

[Russ P.]

Bullshit. Nowadays, anyone serious (since you seem to worry quite a lot
about "being serious") about IT knows what Python is and who uses it.
Heck, even MSVS now has support for Python and there's an official CLR
port of it. Can't get much more "serious" (lol), isn't it ?

Not so. I know professional programmers and computer scientists with
PhDs who have barely heard of Python and who assumed it was something
roughly like Basic -- until I explained that it is a "serious"
language that can be used for serious work. Then there are the
managers ... who tend to prefer serious names. Sometimes they can see
past a joke of a name ... and sometimes they can't.