qooxdoo trouble

[Tim Streater]

RobG wrote: [...]
Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.

Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
Chrome on Ubuntu.

How do you replicate the Windows delete key on a Mac laptop? The Mac
delete key is equivalent (more or less) to the Windows backspace key,
fn+delete is the equivalent of the delete key.

Hmmm, on my Apple keyboard here, I have both backward and forward delete
as standard keys (i.e. no fn required).

 

[MarkHaniford]

Now the joke *is* you.  

And I couldn't care less what Kenny does.  However, there are
thousands of other beginners reading his (and now your) ravings.
Somebody has to set the record straight.

You're out to set the record straight for "the beginners". Nice one.

 

[David Mark]

You're out to set the record straight for "the beginners".  Nice one.

Yes. Like those naive enough to dismiss text browsers and agents with
"scripting turned off".

You're welcome.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

<snip>

You appear to be labouring under a misconception that the comments you
have been receiving represent bug or error reports. They are not;
instead they are nothing but a general announcement of the results of
assessing the quality of the 'web application' that you have been
oscillating between calling finished and a train wreck. The initial
assessment of a web application is fairly simple; load it into some
random (but usually fairly common/popular) web browser and see if
operates without script errors, is useable (in the broadest sense) and
(ultimately) does what it is asserted to do. The feedback from such an
assessment might be no more than pointing out the fact that it errors
at some point (as it loads in your case), that it is too slow to be
useable or that the UI does not function in some way in a particular
browser.

This sort of response is reasonable in the face of assertions such as
that qooxdoo allows an individual to crate a web application in X
weeks of work, because if the 'application' is actually a train wreck
when tired, how long it took to create that train wreck is of not
significance at all (because any fool can rapidly create a train
wreck, with or without qooxdoo). What an independent observer,
interested in qooxdoo is interested in is how long it takes to create
the finished application, where an early symptom of being 'finished'
would be not providing grounds for criticism following relatively
superficial testing.

Making a proper bug report would imply a desire to help you, and given
your attitude and behaviour in this group over the last year or so I
doubt that there are many left who would consider it worth their
effort to try to help you. On the other hand, even without any desire
to help you there is still the reoccurring warning that what you see
from wherever it you observe from does not correspond with what others
are seeing from wherever they are observing from. It suggests that
chanting "works for me" is not the rout to what independent observers
are going to agree is 'finished'.

Richard.

I laugh in the face of your desperate attempt to get mileage out of my
use of the phrase "train wreck".

btw, I am not looking for help from anyone, I am just sharing news of a
good way to develop web apps: qooxdoo and qooxlisp:

http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/

The latter is a good way for folks to find out why I have been ranting
about Cells for going on 15 years.

As for the reports, if someone is going to say "X does not work" I'll
check it and if it works for me all I can say absent more compleat info
is "X works for me on these stacks".

finally, my attitude is not the problem. the problem is the attitude of
a vocal few library hating Lord of the Flies wannabes that think they
own this NG. They do keep me in shape, however.



kt

 

[David Mark]

I laugh in the face of your desperate attempt to get mileage out of my
use of the phrase "train wreck".

Laughter is the best medicine.

btw, I am not looking for help from anyone, I am just sharing news of a
good way to develop web apps: qooxdoo and qooxlisp:

   http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/qooxlisp/

Which has been demonstrated to be complete rubbish.

The latter is a good way for folks to find out why I have been ranting
about Cells for going on 15 years.

What folks in here know anything about your 15-year rant? Ah, perhaps
you mean that other group. Why don't you leave this one out of it?

As for the reports, if someone is going to say "X does not work" I'll
check it and if it works for me all I can say absent more compleat info
is "X works for me on these stacks".

That's because, absent any sort of experience or ability in this
field, you can only observe and shrug.

finally, my attitude is not the problem.

It most assuredly is.

the problem is the attitude of
a vocal few library hating  Lord of the Flies wannabes that think they
own this NG.

Who would want to be a book?

They do keep me in shape, however.

Training to be a loser?

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

RobG wrote: [...]
Your site is still a "train wreck" in Safari, many buttons don't
appear, the tying tutorial is hit and miss.

Works for me in Safari on Windows* and the Mac. And iCab on the Mac and
Chrome on Ubuntu.

How do you replicate the Windows delete key on a Mac laptop? The Mac
delete key is equivalent (more or less) to the Windows backspace key,
fn+delete is the equivalent of the delete key.

A harder problem is interpreting the delete behavior in the context of
wysiwyg math. Not that I have not done it in prior versions of the
editor, just that it would be another sizable wodge of programming.

In the first* editor I did I went crazy and did /everything/ including
drag-select, shift-click select, and then of course cut and paste. I
spent hundreds of hours on that, rather stupidly I think now. Kids I am
sure do nothing but type and hit backspace as needed from the end to fix
things. I will over time work fancier editing back in, but there is just
little ol' me over here (and no money) so I am following the business
approach described here:

http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html

Mr. Cornford is now free to chant "worse is better" in any follow-up.



kt

* I lied. It was prolly the second. I have written five and am trying to
talk myself out of a sixth.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

...and don't forget about the people using Lynx, and the people using
IE4, and the people with Javascript turned off, and the people that
don't have internet.

Kenny, they're significant. Don't deny them.

Why does everyone think I have unlimited resources to achieve 100%
coverage of left-handed blind people not using computers on the initial
release?

Or is it the consensus that because I do not do something in the initial
release I will never do it (and hate blind people)?

You folks have the logical powers of... of... oh, right, a lynch mob.

sheesh. You are just lucky I have to wait five minutes to SCP over a new
release once in a while or you'd never see me around here.

The goal is to become profitable before I go bankrupt. Methinks I can do
that with 95% of the sighted right-handed people. If I cannot, the other
5% won't make ... oh, sorry, there I go again with the logic.

Ah, perfect. The copy is done. I added bookmark and back/forward tab
support using the simple qooxdoo hooks:

http://qooxdoo.org/documentation/1.1/back-button_and_bookmark_support

About twenty lines of code, thank you very much... ah, looks like I have
to write five more to make this work: http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING

kt

 

[MarkHaniford]

Why does everyone think I have unlimited resources to achieve 100%
coverage of left-handed blind people not using computers on the initial
release?

Or is it the consensus that because I do not do something in the initial
release I will never do it (and hate blind people)?

You folks have the logical powers of... of... oh, right, a lynch mob.

sheesh. You are just lucky I have to wait five minutes to SCP over a new
release once in a while or you'd never see me around here.

The goal is to become profitable before I go bankrupt. Methinks I can do
that with 95% of the sighted right-handed people. If I cannot, the other
5% won't make ... oh, sorry, there I go again with the logic.

Ah, perfect. The copy is done. I added bookmark and back/forward tab
support using the simple qooxdoo hooks:

   http://qooxdoo.org/documentation/1.1/back-button_and_bookmark_support

About twenty lines of code, thank you very much... ah, looks like I have
to write five more to make this work:http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING

kt

--http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld

Kenny, out of all people, I would have thought you would've recognized
the sarcasm.

Cue David Mark to say in a Jocelyn Elders voice, "think of the
cheeeeeldren with Opera"

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

What folks in here know anything about your 15-year rant? Ah, perhaps
you mean that other group. Why don't you leave this one out of it?

Because it is the most important advance in software development ever?

Dataflow (or pick your favorite alias) should have been there in the
beginning had we thought through what we were doing with computers. Now
many of us are catching up, in Lisp, Python, C++, Scheme, and even...
well, not sure where the dataflow lies in this bad boy:
http://www.openlaszlo.org/ I see a reference there to "Declarative LZX
language", I think that's it.

Read more here on the general idea:

http://wiki.github.com/kennytilton/cells/

kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Kenny, out of all people, I would have thought you would've recognized
the sarcasm.

Actually, that was my first parse!

"People without the Internet" being my cue.

But then I remembered WebKit was available as a library to bring RIAs to
the desktop.... doh!



kt

ps: this should work now: http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING

 

[Michael Haufe (\TNO\)]

"People without the Internet" being my cue.

But then I remembered WebKit was available as a library to bring RIAs to
the desktop.... doh!

I don't think "library" would be the proper term here. Also, don't
overlook the fact that anyone with IE5+ also has support for HTML
Applications and then there is Mozilla's XUL...

 

[MarkHaniford]

kt

ps: this should work now:http://teamalgebra.com/#TRAINING

I guess these Europeans are still on 300 baud Hayes or something,
because it loads up in a couple seconds for me.

 

[RobG]

Hmmm, on my Apple keyboard here, I have both backward and forward delete
as standard keys (i.e. no fn required).

On your Mac *laptop*?

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

I guess these Europeans are still on 300 baud Hayes or something,
because it loads up in a couple seconds for me.

Europeans... can you believe we bailed them out in WW II only to be
treated like this? <sigh>

I try to keep an open mind. Sometimes I see the thing load incredibly
slowly, which gets cured by resetting my browser. I suspect AllegroServe
is somehow getting confused and then doing a multi-second something on
each request.

Curren plan for world domination:

1. make the functionality and UI good enough to offer with a straight face.

2. offer it selectively to build the load gradually to find the limits
on the current AWS instance.

3. react intelligently to what is learned in #2, either by tuning the
app or (if the app seems OK) using a different AWS instance or just
getting more instances into play.

4. announce here that I am committing suicide because qooxdoo let me
down. It won't be true, but it will give Mr. Mark a moment of satisfaction.

kt

 

[Tim Streater]

Europeans... can you believe we bailed them out in WW II only to be
treated like this? <sigh>

All for nothing, eh? You might like to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission

 

[Ry Nohryb]

All for nothing, eh? You might like to read this:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission

LOL. It's just a bu$ine$$. And... "We bailed them out" ? We had to
manage for the evil to help us. Neither you, nor the brits nor the
french. Good. Thanks. <sigh>

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Running Win XP in FF 3.6.8 and Chrome 5, I still see the problem with
the top of some of your text being cut off.

Yes, that is unresolved. It comes and goes for me on all stacks.
Resetting Safari clears it, but that might just be because I also have
to reload the session. But reloading the session does not always do it.
Could be a random thing.

I used to think it was rebuilding my code from scratch (Lisp is a little
non-deterministic based on how one builds), but (a) I was suspicious of
that based on the code and (b) I discovered /sometimes/ the other
methods cleared the problem.

I have now added code to (a) use the jsMath \bbox extension to have
jsMath generate summary bounds; (b) altered the generated JS to send
back the generated HTML; and (c) pulled in net.aserve.parser so I can
parse the HTML into Lisp data structures. Sadly it does not descend into
the style strings, but that should not be too hard to add. Talk about
round trips! Anyway, when it happens again I'll be able to see what is
different.

If it does not happen again, (a) I have a clue and (b) I'll back out the
bbox and figure out the summary bounds myself and see what is going on.

screen shot at http://williamc.com/temp/algebra/tcenter.gif

Thx for the trouble.

kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

__ Kenneth Tilton <[email protected]> _____
| Weird radio group behavior when one used a radio item that was a
| complex widget itself. Dig dig dig... aha! I had noticed they had
| cocked things up by not letting the complex item have a "model"
| property, and guess where the problem originated?

Why do you insist on posting these updates (or whatever they are) to
c.l.lisp (or c.l.javascript for that matter)? Just put them on your
blog and folks who are interested will find them via Google.

I'll do what you tell me to do when you do what I am over here wishing
you would do.

kt

 

[John G Harris]

Europeans... can you believe we bailed them out in WW II only to be
treated like this? <sigh>

<snip>

U-boats were sinking US naval ships, then Germany declared war on the
USA. What was the USA to do? If it had surrendered and handed over the
Atlantic navy to Germany and the Pacific navy to Japan the president
would have been assassinated long before he could be tried for high
treason.

John