qooxlisp live

[David Mark]

[...]

--http://www.stuckonalgebra.com [...]
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld
Quotes without meaningful attribution make me suspicious.
You never heard of Macworld?

Yes, but the attribution is incomplete (and the reader is left
wondering why).

Whether or not there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant. I can't
find a link to a web version on that site, all links eventually lead
to a download page that states:

|  Pick your operating system:
|     1. Windows XP
|     2. Windows Vista or Windows 7
|     3. Mac OS X (coming soon!)

The site does not offer a browser version and *states* that there is
no Mac version. Whether there are browsers for Mac OS is irrelevant at
this point.

which
left me wondering what was reviwed and when, given that Macworld is a
Mac-specific magazine. A search revealed that the quote is from a
superficial review[1] of "Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing Link
Software" in April 1991.
If "in a class by itself" is superficial, I'll take it.

The *review* is superficial and nearly 20 years old, before the WWW
was invented. Even if there is a web-based version available now, the
review is of an entirely different product from an eon ago and
therefore irrelevant.

It's like IBM claiming technical competence based on a 1930s review of
their electric accounting machine[1].

1. <URL:http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV9012...

Dude, I am sharing a new Javascript framework, not promoting the Algebra
software.

And, as noted, it appears to be a colossal failure. And, of course,
you were warned about your choice of tools (and attitude) long before,
so have nobody to blame but yourself. It's odd that you consider some
"silent majority" that ostensibly agreed (and was proven wrong along)
with you to be your friends and everyone else out to get you.

Someone decided to go OT and root around in my sig for further
opportunities to be a Usenet jerk.

Rooted around? The URI is the first line of three (and the two that
follow refer back to it).

Meanwhile, fifteen years after the fact two educators separately and
independently dug me up and asked if there is any way they could get the
old version running since even now there is nothing like it and since it
really helped their students significantly.

Members of the silent majority I suppose.

Why are you guys so negative?

Just to help the autistics out there, that is a rhetorical question.

Not a very good one given the circumstances. I might ask why you are
so intolerant of autism.

 

[Gregor Kofler]

Am 2010-06-08 16:38, schrieb Kenneth Tilton:

You sound like me talking about 4GLs. ie, I know the issue and fully
considered it. The balance is in favor of having a great library that
takes a bit longer to load. We can continue this after I install the
"build" version which has the thing down to anywhere between 850-1059kb
in one file, depending on the optimizations I turn on.

btw, the Amazon AWS UI uses YUI. I guess they do not know anything about
web programming either.

They know definitely nothing about client-side scripting. And nothing
about web authoring.
Can't say anything about their server-side expertise, though.

Gregor

 

[Helbrax]

The qooxlisp apropos example can now actually be run here (ignore the
site name):

   http://www.teamalgebra.com/

For additional laughs, the server is running on a $2/day Amazon EC2
Fedora Core 8. So it might disappear spontaneously.

Unfortunately I am intermittently having FireFox/IE* not want to
acknowledge when I hit Enter, in which case you won't be able to play
much. I'll investigate and/or put the search button back in to beat the
thing into submission.

kt

* I just got a report of a Chrome user having the same problem, so I am
starting to think I am sometimes** sending the JS over such that it runs
in the wrong order.

** Cells by default orders non-deterministically. There is a mechanism
for corralling the beast where this pisses off an external library, but
these cases have to be identified and coded for. Methinks I have such a
case -- browsers that generally do not work have been observed to work.
Then not again.

kt

--http://www.stuckonalgebra.com
"The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself."
Macworld

Ok after about a million tries in a few different browsers, I finally
got it to load. Have no idea what it's supposed to do, but I don't
understand why it would take so long to load from a visual
perspective.

From the .js

if (!window.qx) window.qx = {};

Wouldn't the following better?
var qx;
if(!qx) {
qx = {};
}

 

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

[<http://www.stuckonalgebra.com>]

Ok after about a million tries in a few different browsers, I finally
got it to load. Have no idea what it's supposed to do, but I don't
understand why it would take so long to load from a visual
perspective.

Scanning through the 3 MiB of source code, I am sure the browser sniffing
constitutes a large portion of it.

From the .js

Wouldn't the following better?
var qx;
if(!qx) {
qx = {};
}

Of course it would. Only a neophyte or fool would risk augmenting a host
object like that referred to by `window'.

If you are not concerned about statement order reflecting execution order,
you could even do

if (!qx)
{
var qx = {};
}

and save one maintenance step (see ES3, section 10.1.3, and ES5, section
10.5).


F'up2 cljs (please only crosspost when necessary)

PointedEars

 

[David Mark]

Ok after about a million tries in a few different browsers, I finally
got it to load.  Have no idea what it's supposed to do, but I don't
understand why it would take so long to load from a visual
perspective.

From the .js


Wouldn't the following better?
var qx;
if(!qx) {
    qx = {};

}

Yes. Much better. It's a somewhat minor detail, but a good indicator
of bad things to come.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

All this because you posted a link to a bloated and broken "RIA"?

Broken? Version 2.0 now installed: http://teamalgebra.com/

Looks fine to me. On FireFox, Chrome, and Safari. Not IE. FireFox at
first refused to show anything, while showing no errors. Then I looked
away and looked back and it worked. Lovely.

Quite fast now that I am doing the release build of the JS, and it now
includes instructions for you heathens not using Lisp. Unaddressed as of
yet is the non-functioning Enter key (prolly my fault) but (a) there is
a new button to kick off a search which may work as a last resort and
(b) the Enter key seems to be working now, lord knows why.

Enjoy.

The check's in the mail?

"Copyright Macworld, Apr, '91: Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing
Link Software is the best algebra tutorial program I have seen. First,
it works with algebra problems that the student types in from his or her
own textbook. Second, it can generate an unlimited number of random
algebraic problems.The software includes an editor for entering
algebraic notations. After a student enters an algebra problem and
begins typing the steps leading to a solution, the program automatically
evaluates each step. The tutor enters a single check if the step is
correct; an x if the step is incorrect; a check and a question mark if
the step could eventually lead to the correct solution; and a double
check for the correct solution. The student can request a series of
hints to help find the solution at any time. To create random problems
(for use without a textbook), the student first selects the type of
problem (Laws of Exponents, Monomial Operations, Multiplying Binomials,
and so on), then chooses from a number of options (With Integers, With
Decimals, Inequalities), and finally clicks on a difficulty level (Easy,
Medium, or Hard). The ability to generate an unlimited number of
problems puts Algebra I Homework Tutor in a class by itself."

And here is one of the teachers who dug me up to ask for the old software:

"Dear Ken,

Back in the 90's, I had used your Homework Tutor program successfully
with my Algebra I students who were behind. I was excited about the
efficient progress they made and how quickly they got to the same level
as my better students after using the program.

Now I have some new teachers in my department who are struggling with
their poor algebra students. you know where I could purchase this
software? Thank you for your help.

Of all of the software I have used in the evolution of school math and
computers, your Algebra I Homework Tutor was the most elegant and practical.

Sincerely,

<name withheld from you clowns>"

kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Broken? Version 2.0 now installed: http://teamalgebra.com/

Looks fine to me. On FireFox, Chrome, and Safari. Not IE. FireFox at
first refused to show anything, while showing no errors. Then I looked
away and looked back and it worked. Lovely.

That just happened again, on FF on Ubuntu. This time I tried twice,
cleared the cache, tried again, nothing. Started at the thing a minute,
did it again and shazam. Let's try a Mac....

kt

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

"kb" means "kilobit" to you too, yes? If no, forget it, you are not ready
for serious Web development.

I think I'll forget you. I already did serious web development with
qooxdoo a couple of years ago, but not with Cells. Client loved me for
it. Then switched to some gentlemen in Viet Nam who were a tad cheaper.
They used ExtJS, btw.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Ok after about a million tries in a few different browsers, I finally
got it to load. Have no idea what it's supposed to do, but I don't
understand why it would take so long to load from a visual
perspective.

Thx for your persistence. The new version works off a so-called build
release of the app, puts everything in one file (1050kb). Loads in 1-2s
for me lotsa places. Trying the Mac next.

kt

 

[David Mark]

Broken? Version 2.0 now installed:http://teamalgebra.com/

Let's see. You posted a Version 1.0 a day or so ago. It was broken.
On being told it was broken, you proceeded to snarl about "silent
majorities" and "cults" and whatnot. I'm not interested in commenting
on "Version 2.0".

[...]

Quite fast now that I am doing the release build of the JS, and it now
includes instructions for you heathens not using Lisp.

Fast is relative and "heathens" sounds like the rhetoric of a cult-
member to me. Must be a very odd cult too.

Unaddressed as of
yet is the non-functioning Enter key (prolly my fault)

That was the chief complaint from before!

but (a) there is
a new button to kick off a search which may work as a last resort and
(b) the Enter key seems to be working now, lord knows why.

Keep praying. Does any of this ring a bell?

Enjoy.

I doubt it. It doesn't even sound like you can enjoy it at this
point.

"Copyright Macworld, Apr, '91: Algebra I Homework Tutor from Missing
Link Software is the best algebra tutorial program I have seen. First,
it works with algebra problems that the student types in from his or her
own textbook. Second, it can generate an unlimited number of random
algebraic problems.The software includes an editor for entering
algebraic notations. After a student enters an algebra problem and
begins typing the steps leading to a solution, the program automatically
evaluates each step. The tutor enters a single check if the step is
correct; an x if the step is incorrect; a check and a question mark if
the step could eventually lead to the correct solution; and a double
check for the correct solution. The student can request a series of
hints to help find the solution at any time. To create random problems
(for use without a textbook), the student first selects the type of
problem (Laws of Exponents, Monomial Operations, Multiplying Binomials,
and so on), then chooses from a number of options (With Integers, With
Decimals, Inequalities), and finally clicks on a difficulty level (Easy,
Medium, or Hard). The ability to generate an unlimited number of
problems puts Algebra I Homework Tutor in a class by itself."

Why, in 2010, would anyone care what one guy said about some software
you wrote in 1991?

And here is one of the teachers who dug me up to ask for the old software:

The note from your teacher is disallowed.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

That just happened again, on FF on Ubuntu. This time I tried twice,
cleared the cache, tried again, nothing. Started at the thing a minute,
did it again and shazam. Let's try a Mac....

Works great, except then I decided it was time to have AWS save my image
as a template and it decided to reboot me.

kt

 

[Scott Sauyet]

(RE: http://www.teamalgebra.com/)



Yeah, I lied. I get 11s or so. The 4-5s was what I remembered from
loading from localhost.

As others have pointed out, you need to look at overall size and see
if the download time for that amount of data is likely to be
acceptable to your target audience and their infrastructures.

I sometimes see it loading the 300+ files 4/s, never wait around to see
it finish. I think the Lisp server I use might be doing that.

If you can't wait around for your own demo to load, you might want to
reconsider the demo.

For me, resetting the browser gets it back to loading in 10+s.

What do you mean by "resetting the browser"?

I think it's like Lisp applications: even "Hello World" will end up with
most of Lisp in there. One could go crazy trying to have a build
procedure take out uneccessary code, but then (a) how much would one
save and (b) why bother? These frameworks are for RIAs, which will
indeed use many components of a framework. The only beneficiary would be
small demos, which I suspect is not worth the trouble. And libraries are
pyramids -- that "simple" demo uses a nice variety of widgets, including
a remote table with scrolling, movable and hidable columns, one column
data renderer, and probably reaches down into a lot of code.

It's your call, of course. But it's commonly said that for web
applications, smaller is better. I think there are good reasons for
that. We all know that many websites have so many more bytes wrapped
up in their images than in the JS, but every bit of savings that can
be squeezed out is useful.

And I didn't mean to dismiss the complexity of your demo. It wasn't
until today when I tried it in Safari and Chrome that I really even
saw the extent of it. 989K still sounds like a lot, but not nearly as
badly so as what I saw not really doing anything in FF and IE.

I believe the people annoyed are the ones who hope to be both annoyed
and annoying, aka, mindlessly abusive of anyone not using raw HTML. Yes,
it gives me great pleasure to annoy them, since they are the ones being
bullies and they totally need to be laughed at, not listened to.

Come on, posting a demo that doesn't work properly and then prickling
at criticisms of it is not going to win you a Good Netizen award.
Imagine this instead:

|>>>> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.
|>>> Yeah, I'm sorry. I *thought* I'd checked it in all major recent
|>>> browsers. I'll post a new version as soon as I work out this
bug.

That would not earn you particularly many rebukes.

You have a sick little cult in this NG, self-important and posturing,

s/You/We.

You're posting here too.

utterly convinced of themselves while the silent majority just rolls
their eyes at them and gets on with their work. Speaking of which...

There is plenty of ego in this group, and it certainly has more than
its share of pedantic nonsense. But you are posting your demo here
for some reason. Is it just ego-gratification, do you simply want to
show the world how smart you are? Or do you think there is
pedagogical value in sharing this with other people interested in
Javascript? Or are you here like most people asking for discussion,
critiques, suggestions for your code?

If it's the latter, then I think you need to be a little less
defensive and to listen a little more carefully.

I have the whole review somewhere, but a digital version could be tough
to dig up. If you are seriously interested I'll look for it.

I'm not.

I am getting confused though between your demo, the software you say
received such high praise and the software that -- is it web software
that you're currently developing? Your quote, in this context,
sounded like it was supposed to be related to the software relevant
for this group.

No, it was written originally for the Mac, in C. The defter of the
intellects in this group might be able to figure out I have decided to
release it as a web app, hence qooxlisp. ie, plaintiff was confusing the
present with the past.

The confusion is not surprising. You're here discussing some software
that you're releasing, but seem to be promoting it with a quote that
long predates this new software.

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

Why, in 2010, would anyone care what one guy said about some software
you wrote in 1991?

See what the teacher wrote in 2007-8 or so...oh, you nipped that.

The note from your teacher is disallowed.

On the basis of "inconvenient truth"?

I understand.

kt

 

[David Mark]

See what the teacher wrote in 2007-8 or so...oh, you nipped that.





On the basis of "inconvenient truth"?

On the basis of "who cares?"

 

[Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn]

I think I'll forget you. I already did serious web development with
qooxdoo a couple of years ago, but not with Cells. Client loved me
for it.

That must have been around 2008 (CE), when qooxdoo -1.0 was released.¹
(Impossible as it may seem, you are even a lousier liar than you are a
developer.)

Then switched to some gentlemen in Viet Nam who were a tad cheaper.

Yeah, sure. Must be great living in fairytale land. Ignorance is bliss,
yes?

They used ExtJS, btw.

Yet another piece of junk, reviewed here before.


PointedEars
___________
¹ First mention of qooxdoo was in c't Magazin 1/2009,
version 1.0 was released on 2009-12-17.

 

[David Mark]

That must have been around 2008 (CE), when qooxdoo -1.0 was released.¹
(Impossible as it may seem, you are even a lousier liar than you are a
developer.)


Yeah, sure. Must be great living in fairytale land. Ignorance is bliss,
yes?

He must be living in some sort of fantasy world as his "2.0" version
(second one in two days) is a gray screen of death in the latest FF.
Viewing the source yields an invalid XHTML 1.1 pretender. XHTML 1.1
on the Web. Go figure.

NOSCRIPT element as well. It's a clinic on how not to write a Web
page (as are so many sites these days).

 

[Kenneth Tilton]

(RE: http://www.teamalgebra.com/)


As others have pointed out, you need to look at overall size and see
if the download time for that amount of data is likely to be
acceptable to your target audience and their infrastructures.

Sure. Right now she loads for me in a couple of seconds. My audience is
students or tutors sitting down to learn/teach Algebra for 30-60min
depending on how much fun they are having with who else is on line. I
think a couple of seconds wait will be bearable. I had a spinning wheel
animated gif going earlier but decided it was not worth it.

If you can't wait around for your own demo to load, you might want to
reconsider the demo.

No, I am too smart to wait around for something obviously pathological
(I can see the server feeding files one by one instead of in a blur).

What do you mean by "resetting the browser"?



It's your call, of course. But it's commonly said that for web
applications, smaller is better. I think there are good reasons for
that. We all know that many websites have so many more bytes wrapped
up in their images than in the JS, but every bit of savings that can
be squeezed out is useful.

Sure, but considering the application I think I can get away with a few
second load. To be honest, they'll be waiting longer for the ads if I go
that route.

And I didn't mean to dismiss the complexity of your demo. It wasn't
until today when I tried it in Safari and Chrome that I really even
saw the extent of it. 989K still sounds like a lot, but not nearly as
badly so as what I saw not really doing anything in FF and IE.

David did not like my point, but I think it valid: with big frameworks
the first bite is ineluctably huge. Libraries are pyramidal, and a
simple button can pull in a lot of the library code. The good news is
they grow slowly thereafter, so I know now pretty much how big my full
rollout will be.

Come on, posting a demo that doesn't work properly and then prickling
at criticisms of it is not going to win you a Good Netizen award.
Imagine this instead:

|>>>> You knew it was dysfunctional but posted a link anyway. Thanks.
|>>> Yeah, I'm sorry. I *thought* I'd checked it in all major recent
|>>> browsers. I'll post a new version as soon as I work out this
bug.

That would not earn you particularly many rebukes.



s/You/We.

You're posting here too.


There is plenty of ego in this group, and it certainly has more than
its share of pedantic nonsense. But you are posting your demo here
for some reason. Is it just ego-gratification, do you simply want to
show the world how smart you are? Or do you think there is
pedagogical value in sharing this with other people interested in
Javascript? Or are you here like most people asking for discussion,
critiques, suggestions for your code?

If it's the latter, then I think you need to be a little less
defensive and to listen a little more carefully.

No, I am incredibly busy with real work and just taking a moment to
share something with other people excited about technology. The
anti-library crowd in here is just how I get the publicity.

I like sharing cool technology, and qooxlisp is that. I know well,
however, that doing o/s increases the effort of developing something by
a factor of 27, possibly 81. Me not go there, got Algebra to do.

I'm not.

I am getting confused though between your demo, the software you say
received such high praise and the software that -- is it web software
that you're currently developing? Your quote, in this context,
sounded like it was supposed to be related to the software relevant
for this group.

It was in my sig. It mentioned Algebra clearly both times. I have been
talking about and demoing a Lisp+qooxdoo framework, and did not say a
word about Algebra until one of the hyenas started chewing on it for no
reason other than to have an opportunity for more abuse.

I owe the hyena a beer for the excuse to spam that, tho.

The confusion is not surprising. You're here discussing some software
that you're releasing, but seem to be promoting it with a quote that
long predates this new software.

See above. My other sig quotes Elwood P. Dowd about the importance of
being pleasant. Does anyone think I am selling DVDs of Harvey when I
post about JS above that sig?

kt

 

[Gregor Kofler]

Am 2010-06-08 20:15, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn meinte:

[snip]

Yeah, sure. Must be great living in fairytale land. Ignorance is bliss,
yes?

"Actually, I've been thinking it ever since I got here: Why oh why
didn't I take the BLUE pill?" [1]

Gregor


[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133093/quotes?qt0324267

 

[Garrett Smith]

[...]

NOSCRIPT element as well. It's a clinic on how not to write a Web
page (as are so many sites these days).

Can you elaborate on the problems with the NOSCRIPT element?

Garrett

 

[Steve Graham]

Sure. Right now she loads for me in a couple of seconds. My audience is
students or tutors sitting down to learn/teach Algebra for 30-60min
depending on how much fun they are having with who else is on line. I
think a couple of seconds wait will be bearable. I had a spinning wheel
animated gif going earlier but decided it was not worth it.





No, I am too smart to wait around for something obviously pathological
(I can see the server feeding files one by one instead of in a blur).










Sure, but considering the application I think I can get away with a few
second load. To be honest, they'll be waiting longer for the ads if I go
that route.




David did not like my point, but I think it valid: with big frameworks
the first bite is ineluctably huge. Libraries are pyramidal, and a
simple button can pull in a lot of the library code. The good news is
they grow slowly thereafter, so I know now pretty much how big my full
rollout will be.













No, I am incredibly busy with real work and just taking a moment to
share something with other people excited about technology. The
anti-library crowd in here is just how I get the publicity.

I like sharing cool technology, and qooxlisp is that. I know well,
however, that doing o/s increases the effort of developing something by
a factor of 27, possibly 81. Me not go there, got Algebra to do.










It was in my sig. It mentioned Algebra clearly both times. I have been
talking about and demoing a Lisp+qooxdoo framework, and did not say a
word about Algebra until one of the hyenas started chewing on it for no
reason other than to have an opportunity for more abuse.

I owe the hyena a beer for the excuse to spam that, tho.





See above. My other sig quotes Elwood P. Dowd about the importance of
being pleasant. Does anyone think I am selling DVDs of Harvey when I
post about JS above that sig?

kt

Kenny,

Why does it load so much faster in Chrome? I've yet to see it load in
FF or IE.


Steve