qooxlisp live

D

David Mark

Kenneth Tilton wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
[...]

NOSCRIPT element as well.  It's a clinic on how not to write a Web
page (as are so many sites these days).

Can you elaborate on the problems with the NOSCRIPT element?

How soon we forget. For about the gazillionth time, it's almost
completely useless.

You replace static content with enhancements. So you don't need a
special "Your browser does not support Javascript" message, which are
now found on virtually every document on the Web, rendering most JS-
related searches useless.

Furthermore, the message may not be accurate. My browser may support
Javascript, but perhaps I disabled it. You can't change the message
to "Please enable Javascript" either as my agent may not support
scripting at all (and many users don't know what JS is anyway).

Anything else you might consider putting in there would do just as
well outside of a NOSCRIPT element. If scripting is missing, lacking
or disabled, it remains. If not, it is replaced.

HTH and add a FAQ entry if this question is not already covered. It's
certainly been asked and answered here ad nauseam.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

David said:
Garrett said:
David said:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
[...]

NOSCRIPT element as well. It's a clinic on how not to write a Web
page (as are so many sites these days).

Can you elaborate on the problems with the NOSCRIPT element?

How soon we forget. For about the gazillionth time, it's almost
completely useless.

You replace static content with enhancements. So you don't need a
special "Your browser does not support Javascript" message, which are
now found on virtually every document on the Web, rendering most JS-
related searches useless.

This reasoning assumes that the DOM support is sufficient, so IMHO it is a
solution for many cases, perhaps most, but not all. For example, I am much
more confident to use DOM Level 0-compliant document.write() and a NOSCRIPT
element as alternative at than relying on DOM Level 2+ modifying the
document afterwards at <http://pointedears.de/ufpdb/celestia/?file=acamar3>.
YMMV.


PointedEars
 
D

David Mark

Sure. Right now she loads for me in a couple of seconds. My audience is
students or tutors sitting down to learn/teach Algebra for 30-60min
depending on how much fun they are having with who else is on line. I
think a couple of seconds wait will be bearable. I had a spinning wheel
animated gif going earlier but decided it was not worth it.





No, I am too smart to wait around for something obviously pathological
(I can see the server feeding files one by one instead of in a blur).








Sure, but considering the application I think I can get away with a few
second load. To be honest, they'll be waiting longer for the ads if I go
that route.

It seems you fail to realize that some users do not have blazing fast
broadband connections. For them the wait to download a document
measured in MB's will be interminable. Face it, despite numerous
warnings, you went ahead with an impossible plan and are now paying
the price.

And I tried the thing on a blazing fast broadband connection and it
took an infinite amount of time to load (gray screen of death).
David did not like my point, but I think it valid: with big frameworks
the first bite is ineluctably huge.

You have certainly bitten off more than you can chew.
Libraries are pyramidal, and a
simple button can pull in a lot of the library code.

What sort of simple button requires a lot of code? Well, usually
those that attempt to mimic built-in buttons but fail even at
replicating the basic functionality and accessibility.
The good news is
they grow slowly thereafter, so I know now pretty much how big my full
rollout will be.

900K+. That's roughly nine times the maximum you should need, even
for an advanced RIA. Why don't you try listening to people who do
this stuff for a living instead of anonymous nut-cases (like the guy
who told you not to worry on the Qooxdoo mailing list). Who turned
out to be right? ;)
No, I am incredibly busy with real work and just taking a moment to
share something with other people excited about technology.

Being "incredibly busy" is not an excuse for wasting other people's
time with half-ass demos (see also Dojo).
The
anti-library crowd in here is just how I get the publicity.

LOL. You misspelled humiliation. And define "library". It could
mean anything from a simple set of widgets to a massive and ill-
advised attempt to implement an OS in a browser. Nobody here is
against scripts in general. Many decry the use of scripts that are
obviously abysmal and written by neophytes. What rational and
responsible person wouldn't (assuming the have the experience to make
the call?) How you (and similarly logic-challenged kooks) manage to
characterize that as "anti-library" is beyond me.
I like sharing cool technology, and qooxlisp is that.

If I want to stare at a gray wall, I can go stand in my basement. But
thanks anyway.
I know well,
however, that doing o/s increases the effort of developing something by
a factor of 27, possibly 81.

Making broad (and incomprehsible in this case) generalizations
decreases the liklihood of being taken seriously. Of course, that
ship has long since sailed.
Me not go there, got Algebra to do.

Good thing it isn't English. ;)
It was in my sig. It mentioned Algebra clearly both times. I have been
talking about and demoing a Lisp+qooxdoo framework, and did not say a
word about Algebra until one of the hyenas started chewing on it for no
reason other than to have an opportunity for more abuse.

I suppose all of the warnings of your inevitable failure (dating back
years) and the subsequent feedback constitute "abuse" to you, despite
the obvious validation your demos have provided. If you prefer
mindless praise, go back to the qooxdoo list.
I owe the hyena a beer for the excuse to spam that, tho.

That reads like a very weak rationalization for your recent string of
nosedives. Seems about time to cut your losses and get back to your
math homework. You might want to brush up on your English as well.
See above. My other sig quotes Elwood P. Dowd about the importance of
being pleasant. Does anyone think I am selling DVDs of Harvey when I
post about JS above that sig?

Yes. I was just thinking that.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

David said:
It seems you fail to realize that some users do not have blazing fast
broadband connections. For them the wait to download a document
measured in MB's will be interminable. Face it, despite numerous
warnings, you went ahead with an impossible plan and are now paying
the price.

And I tried the thing on a blazing fast broadband connection and it
took an infinite amount of time to load (gray screen of death).

I find that interesting. Did you try that with the 900K+ version ("2.0")
with one script request or the 3M+ one ("1.0") with 200+ script requests?
In which browser?

As for the rest, I agree for the most part. But will you *please* trim
your quotes to the relevant minimum as widely recommended, including the
cljs FAQ. (No, I'm not really *asking* you anymore.) I am quite certain
that nobody in either newsgroup wants to pick the possible pearls from your
267 lines core dump. As a regular, you should set a *good* example, and if
you don't post so that your postings can be easily read, you might as well
use a blog instead.


PointedEars
 
D

David Mark

David said:
Garrett said:
David Mark wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
[...]
NOSCRIPT element as well.  It's a clinic on how not to write a Web
page (as are so many sites these days).
Can you elaborate on the problems with the NOSCRIPT element?
How soon we forget.  For about the gazillionth time, it's almost
completely useless.
You replace static content with enhancements.  So you don't need a
special "Your browser does not support Javascript" message, which are
now found on virtually every document on the Web, rendering most JS-
related searches useless.

This reasoning assumes that the DOM support is sufficient, so IMHO it is a
solution for many cases, perhaps most, but not all.

But it doesn't assume that at all. Your static content will remain if
scripting is insufficient, disabled or missing.
For example, I am much
more confident to use DOM Level 0-compliant document.write() and a NOSCRIPT
element as alternative at than relying on DOM Level 2+ modifying the
document afterwards at <http://pointedears.de/ufpdb/celestia/?file=acamar3>.  
The document.write method can certainly be useful. For example, if
that method is present, along with whatever other features your
enhancements require, you can write a STYLE element to prevent FoUC.
Then you replace the hidden static content on load. In all other
cases, you do nothing and the visitor sees the same content as the
search engines (which hopefully does not include a "your browser does
not support Javascript" message).
 
D

David Mark

David said:
Garrett Smith wrote:
David Mark wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
Kenneth Tilton wrote:
[...]
NOSCRIPT element as well.  It's a clinic on how not to write a Web
page (as are so many sites these days).
Can you elaborate on the problems with the NOSCRIPT element?
How soon we forget.  For about the gazillionth time, it's almost
completely useless.
You replace static content with enhancements.  So you don't need a
special "Your browser does not support Javascript" message, which are
now found on virtually every document on the Web, rendering most JS-
related searches useless.
This reasoning assumes that the DOM support is sufficient, so IMHO it is a
solution for many cases, perhaps most, but not all.

But it doesn't assume that at all.  Your static content will remain if
scripting is insufficient, disabled or missing.
For example, I am much
more confident to use DOM Level 0-compliant document.write() and a NOSCRIPT
element as alternative at than relying on DOM Level 2+ modifying the
document afterwards at <http://pointedears.de/ufpdb/celestia/?file=acamar3>.  

The document.write method can certainly be useful.  For example, if
that method is present, along with whatever other features your
enhancements require, you can write a STYLE element to prevent FoUC.

Also, it is perfectly fine to augment static content with
document.write, as in adding a link to a document that will not
function without scripting (e.g. a game). But there is still no need
for a NOSCRIPT element.
 
R

RobG

Dude, I am sharing a new Javascript framework, not promoting the Algebra
software.

Which one? You "shared" Qooxdoo and relevant criticism was dismissed
out of hand. You also "shared" jsMath, however given the dismissive
response to criticism of Qooxdoo, I doubt anyone is going to bother
attempting to review it. jsMath seems to be specially targeted at the
display of precisely formatted characters and images, so you need
specialist advice about both scripting and CSS to get information
about the best way to get the required layout and appearance (I'll
assumed you know what that should be).

I suggest you ask in a group specialising in CSS and probably HTML if
you want opinions about those technologies.

Someone decided to go OT and root around in my sig for further
opportunities to be a Usenet jerk.

You posted it in your sig, presumably to promote a product. I was
interested in it, perhaps it really is a good product. I was curious
why software that apparently doesn't have a Mac or browser version was
reviewed by a Mac magazine.

Meanwhile, fifteen years after the fact two educators separately and
independently dug me up and asked if there is any way they could get the
old version running since even now there is nothing like it and since it
really helped their students significantly.

Is that a plea for help to create a browser version of the software?
If that's what you want, just ask, you may be surprised at the help
you get.

Why are you guys so negative?

Why so defensive? Why not just say:

"Hey, this thing used to have a highly regarded Mac version before the
web, now I'm creating a browser version and I could really do with
some help with <whatever>."

You've been given advice that Qooxdoo is not a good choice of library,
even the guys at Ajaxian have got the message about browser sniffing.
You've been offered help and an alternative (free) library that you
dismissed out of hand because you didn't like the attitude of those
who suggested it. You even received quite a number of responses about
your demo site, so a number of posters here took the time to visit,
wait for the download possibly a number of times in various browsers
and report back their issues.

If you want naive back-slapping and cheery congratulations, ask the
Ajaxian guys to post a puff-piece, I'm sure they'll oblige.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

David said:
Also, it is perfectly fine to augment static content with
document.write, as in adding a link to a document that will not
function without scripting (e.g. a game). But there is still no need
for a NOSCRIPT element.

Yes, there is. I do not want two blocks of heading, but I want that one
block that way only if the document is not displayed within a frameset,
which is, unfortunately, an information only client-side scripting can
provide. And I want it so without a need for W3C DOM support. So I need
that NOSCRIPT element there.


PointedEars
 
K

Kenneth Tilton

Steve said:
Kenny,

Why does it load so much faster in Chrome? I've yet to see it load in
FF or IE.

Sorry, is that a typo? Did you mean "yet to see it load /as fast/ in FF
or IE"? If not a typo: what I have indeed seen is a bizarro gray screen
of nothing in a browser that had loaded the prior version and then after
me doing absolutely nothing more than wait a couple of minutes the same
browser loads OK.

My sense is of the browser having something cached, tho I have tried
resetting these recalcitrant browsers sans effect -- and then the same
ones suddenly work. What I have not seen is a browser go backwards, so
with luck I'll never have to track this down. Nor have I seen a
browser/OS combo fail the first time tried, not counting IE (and it's
hard to count that POS).

kt
 
K

Kenneth Tilton

Kenny,

Why does it load so much faster in Chrome? I've yet to see it load in
FF or IE.

Try it now. I just updated the thing /not/ to use console.log. Slipped
my mind to get those out of there before releasing, but one of the
qooxdoo guys guessed what I was doing, enabled Firebug on the
recalcitrant browsers and reports that fixed it....ah, IE was the only
one not working for me and with those calls out of there it now works.

The anti-library guys must be feeling the walls closing in.

Anyway, check it out fast: http://teamalgebra.com/ because she'll be
coming down in a few days: I just realized I grabbed a 64-bit Amazon
instance cuz the Lisp I had was 64-bit and those instances are $7/day,
not the low-end $2. That's a bit much for just the pleasure of torturing
the Anti-Sniffers.

kt
 
P

Pascal Costanza

Oh. How lame. :(

This is not representative of all Lisp dialects. Different Lisp dialects
offer different deployment opportunities, and thus provide different
characteristics in that regard. Not that it matters that much in this
discussion, just trying to make sure that you don't get a wrong idea here.


Pascal
 

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