Re: I have a problem with this:

[Jeremy J Starcher]

I'm a very visual learner and from the beginning, I see websites laid
out in tables. I see a picture frame and I see tables.. I see a monitor
and I see tables. The tr's and tds .. I see them each one on a website.
The html, I've always considered that to be how a site is
formatted...mmmmmm .... the html is what formats the content. The CSS
can do that too, but I can't see it like I can see tables. Small style
sheets with general formatting of fonts and links I have no problems
with using those and I've used them for quite a while, but the syntax of
CSS seems like more trouble to learn for more complicated websites than
it would be to just lay a site out in html and code it how I know, now.
As it is, I work with multiple styles sheets created by other people and
there is so much written just on one sheet that in order to change a
specific element it takes more time finding it on the style sheet and
finding the right style sheet than it would if the code existed within
the html document.

I'll agree that CSS can be turned into a mess.. it can be easily abused.

Let me share, if I may, a secret I've learned...

There are a lot of lazy hackers out there. By 'lazy' I don't mean they
don't want to work, but they don't want to work any harder than they have
to, so they've written tools that take the 'grunt work' out of the job.

The 'Firebug' plug in for Firefox has a 'inspect element' feature. Click
on an element, and a panel shows exactly what style sheets and what /
line/ affect that element. It even shows rules that are overridden with
newer rules.

(It also has the ability to let you edit the CSS and HTML directly from
within the browser... Development time cut down to a fraction of tracing
things out by hand.)

If you e'er have the feeling of 'There has to be an easier way to do
this...' then most likely, there is.

 

[Jenn]

.. and consider the case of a person who wishes to be treated in a manner
that goes far beyond the above. That person is *not* entitled to be so
treated, despite what you may think.

What would you consider to be *treatment that goes far beyond* common
courtesy, politeness, and respect?

You appear to wish treatment that goes beyond that. Specifically, you
appear
to believe that your gender should make you immune to unpleasant
criticism,
and feel entitled to said immunity.

Being a lady, I expect to be treated like a lady by men. If one does not
*expect* anything, they will get nothing specific in return.

Sorry. Life doesn't work that way.

Have you ever done a study on the subject of *expectations vs unrealistic
expectations*? See my previous comment.

You need a thicker skin in general if you can't distinguish verbal
unpleasantness from an actual physical assault.

Verbal umpleasantness is often compared to actual physical assault ... see
metaphors, similes, etc.

While pleasant and heartwarming to contemplate, that is of no relevance.

On the contrary ... raising children and being around them 99% of the time
creates a necessity to grow up in order to manage the responsibility.

And another symptom is feeling that they have the right to be free from
any
manner of unpleasantness.

Wrong ... there is a point in time that mature adults get to that they have
earned the right to expect common courtesy, politness, and respect when
interacting under fairly normal circumstances with people. If a person
expects nothing, they will get nothing in return.

I think you've made your perspective quite plain already. I disagree with
it.

I happy you get my drift... and it's fine if you disagree with my point of
view. Disagreement if generally healthy when it's done so in a truely adult
manner.

The fact that you are not the only person to have made such an equation
does
not in any way establish its validity.

Never said I was the only person to have done so.. your comment gave the
impression that you didn't understand.

I meant exactly what I wrote.

You.. of course .. because you can only speak for yourself....

Ummmm.... no, that would be you. This entire thread is the result of
*your*
belief that you have some sort of authority to tell others what to do,
i.e.
refrain from writing anything you find unpleasant.

You misinterpret ... I'm telling people to back off because I never asked
for help, and I never asked for an analysis of the link I posted, which
resulted in a onslaught of verbal attacks against me. Had they not done so
in the first place, I would not have had to tell anyone to back off.

I'm making no demands whatever of you.

This sounds like a demand to me: >>> You need to lose that, before you can
expect anyone to take you seriously.

There's that violent imagery again...

Do you find something wrong with imagery in general, or just the imagery I
used? Have you not heard that violence begets violence? A verbal attack is
also a bit if imagery.. therefore, it's logical to respond with similar
imagery to get the point across.

You can't be serious. You really need elaboration of the concept that
there's
a difference between speech and physical violence?

Please elaborate on your entire statement: >>> Speech you dislike, and
physical violence, are worlds apart. Adults understand this.

How do adults understand this?

 

[Jeremy J Starcher]

Just a small note: what I observed was far beyond the level of a lack of
charm and grace. The lack of charm and grace can be a very good thing in
fact as long as it stops at the zero bit of that scale.

True ... I could have clarified and indicated I was referring to initial
reactions.

 

[Jenn]

I worked with an Italian one time and once when we made a quick stop at
his house for something, he gave me a taste of (what he called)
50-year-old "Dago Red". It was as strong as whisky, and damn, it
warmed ya up! His grandparents (still living) had made it in their
youths.

My grandmother used to make her own cough syrup out of plain old whiskey and
rock candy.. THAT warmed you up too! LOL

 

[Jenn]

On 06 May 2010, "Jenn" <[email protected]>

It's pronounced NAY-red-BO-gee-oz. The "O" in BO is long and the "gee"
is a soft g like in "geez". It comes from Olde Celtic and means "Great
One with Big Thing". It's patently a superlative name but it overawes
some people like dorayme whom I think feels inferior in its presence
because their own name is such a wimpy concoction of discordant
sounding syllabic gutteral.

Celtic? cool ... Are you Irish by chance?

 

[Jenn]

As I said, Jenn, your gender status is irrelevant here. You are a coder,
and that is gender neutral.

In your opinion, that is how you feel ... I feel differently.

 

[dorayme]

And those "bad mannars", mine included, were fired up by this come in here
bloody upstart attitude where she does not believe that the tools we use in
our *profession* should be used by or apply to her.

She is self proclaimed bloody precious, having "made money" without using
those tools, I suspect to the detrement of her "clients". I pity them when
they have to use somebody to great expense else to fix their site when it
fails in IE10 of FF4.

FFS dorayme, even you use the validator. Why should she not when five
hundred and twenty eight people tell her that she is a bloody stupid amateur
for not using it?

I make a special case for you rf. Your 'bad manners' are expected
and mostly welcome. We need a trenchant down to earth oz critic
here. You would be surprised how I enjoy many of your forthright
remarks. The problem is not one or two individuals being a bit
terse and frank. Rather it is the 528 who charge like monkeys to
rip up another that has innocently wandered into their territory.

We all behave badly under various circumstances. An Oklahoman who
is used to other ways and certainly not coming in with aggressive
or personally wounding tones is not a justification for the
cacophony of the most base denigrations. It is as if a group mind
has suddenly gone troppo.

Your cruel remarks are often fine, and really funny. But more
gentle is appropriate for newcomers. Anyway, I make an exception
for you, say what you like. Also for Korpela, I have given up.
But that's it! We do not need any more to play hardball with
newcomers.

All the other offenders here will attend my reducation finishing
classes on Tues and Thurs mornings for the next 3 months. And no,
it is not free, they know who they are and I expect some deposits
($24 US) to be sent to me. Lewis and Ed will pay double,
especially Ed because he has said what a moneybags he is and
Lewis because I might as well get dough out of him before I kill
him. <g>

 

[dorayme]

You are correct. I should either have snipped them or for this case,
top-posted.

Not the crime of the century, don't worry! I come on here only to
say that top posting and quoting the lot would be even worse. We
would still scroll to see if you had added any pearls of wisdom
at the end... <g>

 

[Jenn]

Rochelle, Michelle => Shelley
Sheldon => Shelly

Ever hear of Shelly Berman?

On the internet, people spell their names many different ways, so Shelly
looked to be a female name to me. No offence intended to you.

ON THIS NEWS GROUP you are a CODER first, middle, and almost last. At the
very end, you are a woman. THAT is the point I was making.

Well.. I guess you will just have to make an adjustment then because it goes
like this:
human being, woman, mother(everything that goes with that), etc..., person
with a prior history before I came here, and then I'm a CODER. Get to know
people before you assume they want your criticism. Ask them if they want
your help before forcing advice upon them. That's just common sense, imo.

Everyone, of either gender (or even mixed gender) should be treated kindly
and with respect. Also, it is not forfeiting your gender identity. The
point is that your gender is irrelevant.

Gender is not irrelevent at all. It is part of who each of us are as a
whole.

 

[Jenn]

Indeed all is true.. I come on to add only the usual reminder in
cases to do with people's fingers at keys:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/jokes/germanPianist.html>

funny linke! LOL

 

[dorayme]

....
Ever hear of Shelly Berman?

Used to listen to his records!

ON THIS NEWS GROUP you are a CODER first, middle, and almost last.

There are some people on technical usenet groups who have the
remarkable ability to have this as an actual practical
philosophy. What they do is just comment on technical issues and
never get into personal matters. I salute them.

 

[dorayme]

As I said, Jenn, your gender status is irrelevant here. You are a
coder, and that is gender neutral.

Not completely. alt.html is a bit looser and for more general
issues in website making than say ciwas (on stylesheets). One
issue that is rather fascinating (at least I find it so) is
whether some aspects of aesthetic design reflect male or female
sensibilities.

 

[Jeremy J Starcher]

In your opinion, that is how you feel ... I feel differently.

As I said in an earlier post, technical people and geeks in particular,
tend to communicate a bit differently and they have a different culture.
I understand a place, a time and a culture where gender matters.

In meat-space, it matters. Here, it doesn't.

However, in technical circles like this one, you have wandered into an
almost pure meritocracy[1].

You have wandered into a culture here, far different from the one you are
used to. You might not realize it, because you are sitting in front of a
computer and keyboard and your body hasn't gone anywhere ... but a none-
the-less you have entered into a different culture every bit as much as
if you were to travel overseas.

I don't know if you've traveled before, being from Away will only get you
so much grace.

(Slipping in a sci-fi reference to avoid flame about any real people
groups.)

If you were sitting in a local McDonalds, and the visiting Ferengi
demanded that you chew his food because you are a female ... you'd have a
right to be offended. He is an alien in your world and must learn your
local customs.

In the same way, you are a visitor here. The rules of your home area
don't apply.

Gender doesn't matter ...
Looks don't matter ...
Wealth doesn't matter ...

Twere the Queen of England a secretly dabbling in web sites and visited
here, she'd be another name on the screen.

(Hey, think about it. What I'm actually saying is that I'm treating you
like I'd treat the Queen of Bloody England! What more can you ask for!)

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

1. Jenn showed up praising HTML Tables for layout
2. People pointed out that HTML tables for layout were bad
3. People asked for links
3. Jenn posted links
4. People criticized the code, rather gently
5. Jenn got pissed and started in with denigrating validators, valid
code, and anything that any real designers had to say (LOL).
6. People responded more strongly, pointing out specific ways in which
the code was bad, ways that it failed, and ways it should be improved.
7. Jenn started calling people abusive and insisting she get special
treatment for being female (which had never come up before).

I believe you pretty much nailed it, Lewis. Spot on.

 

[dorayme]

FYI, if you see a post from me, and it is top-posted, then don't bother
to scroll down unless it is only a summary _and_ I include something
like "see below".

Ah I dunno sheldong... you might slip in something at the bottom
as an afterthought and I would be the big loser not to have read
it, it might be the numbers of the next big lottery win.

 

[dorayme]

I believe you pretty much nailed it, Lewis. Spot on.

Because you are seeing exactly what you want to see rather than
other ways to make this list.

 

[Jenn]

Not completely. alt.html is a bit looser and for more general
issues in website making than say ciwas (on stylesheets). One
issue that is rather fascinating (at least I find it so) is
whether some aspects of aesthetic design reflect male or female
sensibilities.

One thing that comes to mind is posing a scenario to both a man and a woman
designer/website builder to see how they respond to it.

Scenario:
Design and build a site where 60% of the viewers will be women age 35- 52,
20% of viewers will be men age 25 - 45, and the last 20% will be a mix of
what is left. The subject of the site would family oriented, and you are
told to pick the topic and design and build it.

How would a man design that site vs how would a woman? What key design
elements would each include or exclude? How would they chose the colors and
design the navigation, and what sort of content would they choose to include
or exclude?

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Because you are seeing exactly what you want to see rather than
other ways to make this list.

Perhaps it is because her rebuttal to coding comments was to tell me I
am an abusive male who beats women. That wouldn't cloud my thoughts,
would it?

Us: "Your code is so last millennium."
Jenn: "You're a bull in a china shop who beats women and I am a lady."

 

[dorayme]

One thing that comes to mind is posing a scenario to both a man and a woman
designer/website builder to see how they respond to it.

Scenario:
Design and build a site where 60% of the viewers will be women age 35- 52,
20% of viewers will be men age 25 - 45, and the last 20% will be a mix of
what is left. The subject of the site would family oriented, and you are
told to pick the topic and design and build it.

How would a man design that site vs how would a woman? What key design
elements would each include or exclude? How would they chose the colors and
design the navigation, and what sort of content would they choose to include
or exclude?

Yes, I guess there are complicated issues. Who makes the site as
well as for whom it is *mainly* for. I was thinking of the
simpler thing of a webpage or site for no one in particular
(about cheesemaking for example, or the history of music...) and
being able to detect if it was made by a man, woman or perhaps
even an extra terrestrial.

 

[Neredbojias]

My grandmother used to make her own cough syrup out of plain old
whiskey and rock candy.. THAT warmed you up too! LOL

I bet it did! Bet there were plenty of similar "remedies" for ailments
back in those days. Today, though, in the modern world, parents
probably give their kids acid and crack to make them feel better.
Those and other related neuro-chemicals are considerably more effective
and certainly more politically-correct than, ugh, "booze".