Ruby Editor

B

Brad Phelan

Only because we haven't cracked free energy and replicators yet...
Again, working on it :)

The free energy movement faces the same hurdles as the free software
movement. Locked out by government controlled energy oligarchies,
similar to the government controlled intellectual property robber
barons, they need a Nikolai Tesla to wave the flag .... but he died ...
a while ago ... which makes him kinda useless. However we have Richard
Stallman and Linus Torvalds, surely sympathetic to their 'free' brethren.

As a first step Linus needs to add kernel support for 'free energy'
threads based on the ground breaking work by Mark McCutcheon. It would
be a sure hit at the server farm and as Linux finally breaks onto the
desktop this year it will carry the 'free' mantra to it's final
and inevitable destiny. Free software and free energy together.

There is always the risk of a backlash by entrenched parties, fat with
power and hungry to stay with outdated business models, at the expense
of the greater good. To protect against this the next step would be for
Mr Stallman to quickly trot out GPL v4 with an explicit 'free energy'
clause. This would effectively sandbox free software on free energy
computers. In lay terms free software would only be able to run on
switched off computers and closed source software would only run on
switched on computers.

There is also a risk that VMWare will rise to the challenge and create
emulation environments for 'free energy' computers emulating the energy
required for closed source software to be able to run. Thus GPL v4 must
also be explicit that energy emulation is disallowed.

Once this is done the world will be happy.
 
J

John Joyce

I wouldn't call it "half logic". If you accept that value is derived
from scarcity, and that bits can be copied arbitrarily easily (and
are
therefore by definition non-scarce and have *no* intrinsic value),
then
a government-enforced moratorium on copying bits under certain
circumstances is required to give those bits themselves scarcity and
therefore value. Unless you have a different model for defining
intrinsic value, the logic is pretty solid...

Actually . . . software has value. Something doesn't have to have
physical scarcity to have value. In fact, one might say that software
*is a measure of value*, in that it is the symbolic representation of
work, hopefully with some kind of efficiencies built in that
enhance the
value of that work.

The reason the software-as-units business model relies on artificial
scarcity is that it's trying to derive market value from a non-scarce
part of the chain of creation, distribution, and use. Ultimately,
in its
natural form, a software market would be a service industry rather
than a
product manufacturing industry.

Of course, I think I may be violently agreeing with you, to some
extent.
You're probably using "software" in this case to refer to "copies of
software", as a form of shorthand. The copies themselves have no
intrinsic value (though the media on which they're copied have at
least
some such value).

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Phillip J. Haack: "Productivity is not about speed. It's about
velocity.
You can be fast, but if you're going in the wrong direction, you're
not
helping anyone."

'natural form'?
Software and markets have no 'natural form' they are social
constructs period.
The non-human part of the world does not create nor exhibit such things.

What you are describing is a fantasy that you subscribe to. There is
no artificial scarcity in software sales. It is impossible. Most
vendors sell via download anyway. They're simply charging what the
market will accept and pay. If sales slumped and customers blamed
pricing, you bet they'd have a price drop. The only scarcity in this
is the market for customers. There are a reasonable finite number of
customers for any product. If you happen to produce video editing
software, you charge what you can for it. You seem to think that all
software is the same. It's not. Many types of software don't have or
require much of a service sector to them. You simply offer an
interface or features that users want and are willing to pay for.
If people are willing to pay for something, then you have demand.
When you have demand, somebody WILL supply that demand. Drugs!
Software! Massages! Counselling! Manicure! Live Music! etc. ad infitum
 
R

Robert Dober

My I add a different idea?
Does this still belong on the list?
I mean it is for sure interesting and somehow related to Ruby but in
my humble opinion everybody has mad her point and I feel that it would
be mighty nice to respect the list and potentially take it Off List.

Just an idea.

Robert
 
C

Chad Perrin

'natural form'?
Software and markets have no 'natural form' they are social
constructs period.
The non-human part of the world does not create nor exhibit such things.

Actually, economic principles apply to "the non-human part of the world"
as well. In any case, when I used the phrase "natural form" (obviously
somewhat loosely), I referred to economic markets absent external
influences of authoritarian power structures.

What you are describing is a fantasy that you subscribe to. There is
no artificial scarcity in software sales. It is impossible. Most
vendors sell via download anyway. They're simply charging what the
market will accept and pay. If sales slumped and customers blamed
pricing, you bet they'd have a price drop. The only scarcity in this
is the market for customers. There are a reasonable finite number of
customers for any product. If you happen to produce video editing
software, you charge what you can for it. You seem to think that all
software is the same. It's not. Many types of software don't have or
require much of a service sector to them. You simply offer an
interface or features that users want and are willing to pay for.
If people are willing to pay for something, then you have demand.
When you have demand, somebody WILL supply that demand. Drugs!
Software! Massages! Counselling! Manicure! Live Music! etc. ad infitum

The statement that there is no artificial scarcity in "software sales",
assuming you mean under the current circumstances of per-unit sales of
recorded copies of software with strong copyright law preventing
additional copying and distribution, only betrays a lack of understanding
(or unwillingness to acknowledge) of the discussion points that have
already been brought up.

You seem unwilling or unable to recognize that the current circumstances
of copyright law are a significant market distortion applied to "what the
market will accept and pay". You're affirming the consequent again,
assuming that your desired conclusion is true within your premises.

I'm not sure whether you're ignoring the foregoing explanation of the
term "artificial scarcity" or failing to grasp it. In case it wasn't
clear, I'll try again:

The term "artificial scarcity", in the context of economics, refers to an
imposition of additional costs to the acquisition of something via
conscious choice rather than merely circumstantial facts. One example
would be hoarding a good. Another is using law to prevent others from
creating it. The fact that such a circumstance is at play in the
software industry is undeniable: copyright law is inserted into the
software market to prevent possessors of software from duplicating it,
thus imposing scarcity via a conscious, *artificial* decision.
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_scarcity

That there is artificial scarcity in the (legal) US software market is
almost a tautology.

I have no idea where you get the idea that I "seem to think all software
is the same". That strikes me as a complete non-sequitur.
 
J

John Joyce

'natural form'?
Software and markets have no 'natural form' they are social
constructs period.
The non-human part of the world does not create nor exhibit such
things.

Actually, economic principles apply to "the non-human part of the
world"
as well. In any case, when I used the phrase "natural
form" (obviously
somewhat loosely), I referred to economic markets absent external
influences of authoritarian power structures.

What you are describing is a fantasy that you subscribe to. There is
no artificial scarcity in software sales. It is impossible. Most
vendors sell via download anyway. They're simply charging what the
market will accept and pay. If sales slumped and customers blamed
pricing, you bet they'd have a price drop. The only scarcity in this
is the market for customers. There are a reasonable finite number of
customers for any product. If you happen to produce video editing
software, you charge what you can for it. You seem to think that all
software is the same. It's not. Many types of software don't have or
require much of a service sector to them. You simply offer an
interface or features that users want and are willing to pay for.
If people are willing to pay for something, then you have demand.
When you have demand, somebody WILL supply that demand. Drugs!
Software! Massages! Counselling! Manicure! Live Music! etc. ad
infitum

The statement that there is no artificial scarcity in "software
sales",
assuming you mean under the current circumstances of per-unit sales of
recorded copies of software with strong copyright law preventing
additional copying and distribution, only betrays a lack of
understanding
(or unwillingness to acknowledge) of the discussion points that have
already been brought up.

You seem unwilling or unable to recognize that the current
circumstances
of copyright law are a significant market distortion applied to
"what the
market will accept and pay". You're affirming the consequent again,
assuming that your desired conclusion is true within your premises.

I'm not sure whether you're ignoring the foregoing explanation of the
term "artificial scarcity" or failing to grasp it. In case it wasn't
clear, I'll try again:

The term "artificial scarcity", in the context of economics, refers
to an
imposition of additional costs to the acquisition of something via
conscious choice rather than merely circumstantial facts. One example
would be hoarding a good. Another is using law to prevent others from
creating it. The fact that such a circumstance is at play in the
software industry is undeniable: copyright law is inserted into the
software market to prevent possessors of software from duplicating it,
thus imposing scarcity via a conscious, *artificial* decision.
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_scarcity

That there is artificial scarcity in the (legal) US software market is
almost a tautology.

I have no idea where you get the idea that I "seem to think all
software
is the same". That strikes me as a complete non-sequitur.

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
W. Somerset Maugham: "The ability to quote is a serviceable
substitute for
wit."
Seriously, this should go off list or something soon. It's turned
into a SlashDot thread almost.
I'm not denying you the term 'artificial scarcity'
what I see is that markets are not necessarily about scarcity.
If we have a thousand lemons, one person who wants one lemon and you
offer them for free and I sell it with a contract that says I
guarantee or not this and that blah blah, and the person decides to
buy mine, then it is entirely a freedom of choice on the consumer.
Nobody is forced to purchase anything as there is no lemon monopoly.
The consumer simply decides they want the one that they have to pay
for. For whatever reasons they decide they want that one.
Open source comes with no more guarantees of support or viability or
longevity than closed source. Consumers have a choice. Individuals or
organizations. They make choices. You make a choice in your
licensing, but don't force your license on others. If one company
sells a packaged linux distro and another gives it away and people
choose one or the other, that is where freedom is!
 
C

Chad Perrin

Seriously, this should go off list or something soon. It's turned
into a SlashDot thread almost.

Probably. Of course, considering you don't seem to be arguing against
what was actually said, I'm not sure there's a real discussion to take
off-list.

I'm not denying you the term 'artificial scarcity'
what I see is that markets are not necessarily about scarcity.

I didn't say markets are about scarcity, either. I'm not even sure what
you mean by that.

If we have a thousand lemons, one person who wants one lemon and you
offer them for free and I sell it with a contract that says I
guarantee or not this and that blah blah, and the person decides to
buy mine, then it is entirely a freedom of choice on the consumer.
Nobody is forced to purchase anything as there is no lemon monopoly.
The consumer simply decides they want the one that they have to pay
for. For whatever reasons they decide they want that one.
Open source comes with no more guarantees of support or viability or
longevity than closed source. Consumers have a choice. Individuals or
organizations. They make choices. You make a choice in your
licensing, but don't force your license on others. If one company
sells a packaged linux distro and another gives it away and people
choose one or the other, that is where freedom is!

Providing support is one potential business model that leverages open
source software, so the statement that there's no such thing as support
for open source software isn't really entirely accurate (or, conversely,
the implication that there *is* necessarily support for closed source
software isn't really entirely accurate).

Neither open nor closed source software *gaurantees* longevity, but the
mechanisms and opportunities for longevity are greater with open source
software, and the mechanisms and opportunities for premature (in terms of
demand) removal of closed source software are greater than those of open
source software.

In any case, I don't think anyone said anything in this discussion about
"forcing" a license on anyone. This whole subthread began with the
statements made by a couple of people to the effect that, all else being
equal, open source software is a better bet for their purposes -- and
with the fact that some people who appear to like TextMate too umbrage at
the suggestion that (for the people who prefer open source software, at
least) closed source software suffers some limitations in terms of its
probable longevity. There's nothing about guarantees in that, nor about
forcing anyone to use a particular license.
 
R

Rimantas Liubertas

and
with the fact that some people who appear to like TextMate too umbrage at
the suggestion that (for the people who prefer open source software, at
least) closed source software suffers some limitations in terms of its
probable longevity.
<...>

I can use real benefits Textmate provides for me *now*, and frankly, I
don't care about
any *probable* problems in the future. If TM gets discontinued - fine.
I still have my
copy, or I can choose from myriads of other editors, free or non-free,
open, closed,
dug-under-the-tree source, whatever.
I am pretty sure I will die one day, should that be the reason not to
use benefits of living today?
Cost of switching your text editor is much less than cost of
switching, say, your webapp infrastructure (some my argue), so
concerns about longevity should be viewed in appropriate context.
 
C

Chad Perrin

<...>

I can use real benefits Textmate provides for me *now*, and frankly, I
don't care about
any *probable* problems in the future. If TM gets discontinued - fine.
I still have my
copy, or I can choose from myriads of other editors, free or non-free,
open, closed,
dug-under-the-tree source, whatever.
I am pretty sure I will die one day, should that be the reason not to
use benefits of living today?
Cost of switching your text editor is much less than cost of
switching, say, your webapp infrastructure (some my argue), so
concerns about longevity should be viewed in appropriate context.

The problems of a probably reduced lifespan of closed source software
introduced by TextMate is not limited to the fact that TextMate itself is
closed source software. It also involves the fact that to use TextMate,
one would also have to choose a substantially closed source operating
system. An OS platform is a significantly greater investment of one's
resources than a text editor. I prefer to invest in software that is
more likely to survive longer, particularly when doing so applies to the
OS I use.

Nothing exists in a vacuum.
 
B

Brad Phelan

In fact, copyright and physical property
rights are specifically in legally enforceable conflict with one
another.

:)

Try posting torrents of the latest Hollywood schmalz on your server.
When hauled into court try arguing that *But your honor copyright and
physical property rights are specifically in legally enforceable
conflict with one another* and see how far you get.
 
A

Alex Young

Chad said:
Actually . . . software has value. Something doesn't have to have
physical scarcity to have value. In fact, one might say that software
*is a measure of value*, in that it is the symbolic representation of
work, hopefully with some kind of efficiencies built in that enhance the
value of that work.

The reason the software-as-units business model relies on artificial
scarcity is that it's trying to derive market value from a non-scarce
part of the chain of creation, distribution, and use. Ultimately, in its
natural form, a software market would be a service industry rather than a
product manufacturing industry.
That's pretty much my thinking.
Of course, I think I may be violently agreeing with you, to some extent.
You're probably using "software" in this case to refer to "copies of
software", as a form of shorthand. The copies themselves have no
intrinsic value (though the media on which they're copied have at least
some such value).
Precisely - I should have been a little clearer :)

With that, I'm ducking out of this thread. We're way OT, and I don't
think there's much more I can add to what's gone before.
 
R

Rimantas Liubertas

Cost of switching your text editor is much less than cost of
I would reverse those by a huge margin. I've been using my current text editor
since a few years before there was a web, let alone a web application, let alone
a web application infrastructure.

It just says that you have been using your text editor for a really
long time, not a cost
of switching it :)
 
C

Chad Perrin

:)

Try posting torrents of the latest Hollywood schmalz on your server.
When hauled into court try arguing that *But your honor copyright and
physical property rights are specifically in legally enforceable
conflict with one another* and see how far you get.

Exactly my point -- your physical property rights are contradicted by
copyright law.
 
S

Sy Ali

I used to be a *real* minimalist. I did some of my best hacking in Forth
on an HP-100 Pocket PC. Darn thing ran Perl 4 too at an acceptable
speed, doubled as a VT100 with a usable keyboard and an almost visible
80x24 screen. I'll bet it will run Ruby, although I'm not sure what kind
of script you could cram into 640K.

If you mean an HP 100lx, then no it won't run Ruby. Ruby for DOS
won't work on an 8086, if it is even still available at all that is.

Try a Zaurus. I'm getting Ruby up and running on mine. =)
 
B

Brad Phelan

Chad said:
Exactly my point -- your physical property rights are contradicted by
copyright law.

I will agree with you with a small change.

*your physical property rights are _overidden_ by copyright law*

But this is not unique to copyright law. Physical property rights are
commonly overridden by law's associated with fraud, murder, drug
dealing, civil infractions, family breakups, national interest, traffic
violations and more. Observing these points shows the law rarely
considers any particular 'right' inviolate. I would tentatively suggest
that even the word 'rights' is a loaded term that should be generally
avoided as it suggests absolutism whereas reality is more complex.

Respectfully

B
 
C

Chad Perrin

I will agree with you with a small change.

*your physical property rights are _overidden_ by copyright law*

But this is not unique to copyright law. Physical property rights are
commonly overridden by law's associated with fraud, murder, drug
dealing, civil infractions, family breakups, national interest, traffic
violations and more. Observing these points shows the law rarely
considers any particular 'right' inviolate. I would tentatively suggest
that even the word 'rights' is a loaded term that should be generally
avoided as it suggests absolutism whereas reality is more complex.

My take is the opposite -- that cases where law contradicts rights are
violations, and the law should be changed. I don't take legal violation
of rights to be a hint that rights aren't all that important.
 
B

Brad Phelan

My take is the opposite -- that cases where law contradicts rights are
violations, and the law should be changed. I don't take legal violation
of rights to be a hint that rights aren't all that important.

Can you explain what you believe 'rights' are in the absence of 'law'?
I am aware that people have different opinions on this depending on
their background, eg religious affiliation, philosophy or legal
training. My take is that 'rights' do not really exist in that there is
no 'natural law' to reference to. To believe otherwise gives a false
sense of human importance in the universe. On the other hand 'wants' and
desires do exist and are very tangible. I want a car, I want a
girlfriend, I want a new CD, I want to download that software, I want to
sell some software, I want a gun, I want to walk down the street in
safety, I want to be healthy, I want to smoke unfiltered cigarettes etc.

Want's only get codified to 'rights' in reference to the Law so it is
difficult to suggest that the Law somehow contradicts rights which it
self creates. It can only contradict 'wants' which is a natural thing
because not all 'wants' are compatible or sometimes they are but not all
of the time. The reason the Law is complex is because human wants are
complex and contradictory.

The main thing is to try not to confuse your wants with your rights.


B
 
C

Chad Perrin

Can you explain what you believe 'rights' are in the absence of 'law'?
I am aware that people have different opinions on this depending on
their background, eg religious affiliation, philosophy or legal
training. My take is that 'rights' do not really exist in that there is
no 'natural law' to reference to. To believe otherwise gives a false
sense of human importance in the universe. On the other hand 'wants' and
desires do exist and are very tangible. I want a car, I want a
girlfriend, I want a new CD, I want to download that software, I want to
sell some software, I want a gun, I want to walk down the street in
safety, I want to be healthy, I want to smoke unfiltered cigarettes etc.

Rights are those limits on how others may interact with one, based on
principles of a consistent system of ethics derived logically from a
minimal set of necessary axioms. In other words, they're the individual,
practical manifestation of ethical principles.

I'm subscribe to neither the "natural rights" theory of ethics (in its
traditional form, at least) nor the postmodern assertion that rights are
just social conventions and we're all subject to whatever the tyrrany of
the majority decrees. Ultimately, the origin of rights as far as I'm
concerned is in the bare minimum of care one should take in:

A) allowing others their own beliefs
B) avoiding irrevocable acts that may prove "evil", in absence of any
provable certainty of metaphysical morality

In other words, just as one doesn't go around randomly eating berries in
the woods for no other reason than curiosity, because one is careful
enough to consider that unidentified berries might be poisonous, I
subscribe to a system of ethics that is essentially based on the idea
that imposing my will on others, against their will, runs substantial
risk of being wrong in some manner more substantial than mere social
convention. Comments about how important humans are (or aren't) are
basically meaningless to me, since it's not the number of limbs or
chromosomes that makes someone ethically significant.

Want's only get codified to 'rights' in reference to the Law so it is
difficult to suggest that the Law somehow contradicts rights which it
self creates. It can only contradict 'wants' which is a natural thing
because not all 'wants' are compatible or sometimes they are but not all
of the time. The reason the Law is complex is because human wants are
complex and contradictory.

Laws are attempts to provide a set of social standards of conduct that
are enforced by some centralized power structure. Ethics are an attempt
to provide a set of social standards of conduct based on a reasoned
analysis of right and wrong. In a perfect world, laws would be based on
a consistent system of ethics -- but we live in a rather imperfect world,
where often the law consists of conveniences created to serve those with
the influence to do so, based on majoritarian whim, or based on profound
failures to understand the causal relation between certain policies and
their consequences. In this manner, we end up with laws that, in
practice, materially violate rights rather than protecting them.

One might link law to desire, but doing so is a losing proposition unless
the law's only relation to desire is to protect people against the
imposition of desires that directly affect them against their will.

The main thing is to try not to confuse your wants with your rights.

I don't have any problem with that.
 
B

Bira

I prefer to avoid hiding the power of Vim behind a point-and-click
facade. My opinion is my own, of course.

Since I have a severe case of "vi dyslexia", that interface is what
allows me to use the editor at all :). I suspect the Cream
configuration was made with people like me in mind.

It does allows you to enter command mode a will, however, so all the
power is still there for those who knows how to access it.
 

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