Good Sites - who's got some examples?

[Zak McGregor]

And the crap millions and millions of viewers prefer. You keep
forgetting about them. There is HUGE sector out there that want this
kind of stuff. And I am happy to provide the service.

Present stats to prove this, and not Macromedia sponsored or derived ones
please.

It makes no difference that you don't like a web site that is like that.
They don't care, they are presenting their content in the format they
have decided will work the best for their product. By the simple fact
that many tell you what you need to view the site, they are aware that
you may not turn that something on.

It is your job to convince "them" that their content is best presented in
a manner that works. To not understand why this means standards-compliant
open formats is to not grasp the basic concept of the web.

They are well aware that there will be a small percentage that either
can not or will not turn these features on. And they dont care. Because
that is not how they want to present their content.

Again, you would be falling short of supplying the services you purport
to if you leave it at this.

If you think this is wrong, then more power to you, invest in their
competition. We disagree, Yippie.

Unfortunately for you, this isn't a matter of opinion, there is a
quantifiable right and wrong here.

Good bye.

Zak

 

[Zak McGregor]

That is the piece that some people don't seem to understand. Their site
is not meant to be useful. It is there for advertising only. (Sure if
you dig deep enough you can buy a cap that says coke, but it is not the
primary reason for the site). No one will ever search google for "brown
carbonated beverage".

And the people that go there are expecting to see cool thinks. This is
coke, and coke is cool. Or insert the name of any other company that
uses their site primarily as a means of advertisement.

Have you even *been* to the Coke site? (http://www.cocacola.com/) I don't
see any Flash, I do see abominable javascript-instead-of-normal-hrefs, but
there is a wealth of information there, and hardly any of it seems to be
of the advertising nature. There is information for investors, the history
of the company, information about their social and educational programmes,
information on the company itself, contact details, FAQs, etc.

Of course there are numerous issues with the site, but it is far from
being an advertising fluff piece.

Foot with bullethole in it hmm?

Ciao

Zak

 

[Zak McGregor]

I thought so. Too many people on alt.html want to complain about sites
using JavaScript and Flash, but what they fail to understand is that
their view of what the web should be is out of line with what people are
actually doing and wanting.

I very much prefer the way most of the automakers are building their
sites as opposed to the way some people on here think a site should be
built.

I am *so* pleased that you chose this precise example. <rubs hands>

I maintain a database of car specifications. It takes me hours opf my time
to collate and check the data, and to do the research on the cars.
Unfortunately for Subaru, some of their info is tucked away behind
impenetrable Flash where plain text would have suited the content _much_
better. Result? It takes much longer for the data to get into my database,
as I have to wait for dead-trees information (which may or may not
arrive), or for a user to specifically request that model to be added.
Short of that it really isn't worth my time to go and fight to see the
information so I simply move on to the next car that has not yet been
captured - there are more models still needing capture than have already
been entered, so it isn't worth my time to chase my tail finding a
Flash-enabled browser, working out how to transfer the data from that
machine to mine (no printing in 99% of Flash cases, no way to save as
text, no way to do anything really except _write it down_, for feck's
sake). No big deal for Subaru you might think, but my site gets over 10000
page views a day. So by denying access to this one non-Flash using person,
Subaru have denied a much larger audience potential exposure to their
information via a site that acquired it's info directly from Subaru's
site.

Ciao

Zak

 

[Zak McGregor]

I am pretty sure Subaru did a little research before switching to this
format. And they found that they sold more cards pissing off the anti-
javascript people then they did when they had a plain Jane site.

Either they didn't and/or they used crap data to
formulate their position with.

Ciao

Zak

 

[Zak McGregor]

The answer is simple. Don't cripple your browser.

Funny, that would be exactly the motivation for disabling
Javascipt........

 

[Zak McGregor]

That just about wraps it all up.

If you swallow that tripe, fine. If you are willing to learn & understand
the dynamics of this discussion and the whole theory behind what most of
the informed participants are trying to say, then stick around and do so.
Otherwise drift off into your little dream world where choices and
decisions have no ramifications, no effect outside of those who make
them.

Ciao

Zak

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

If I may add:
<http://www.adaptivepath.com/>
(Though the important looking link at the top leads off the site to
Amazon; that puts me off)

Thanks for the example, Kris, it's a nice looking site. Though I didn't
find any link to Amazon? Everything seems to be okey-dokey.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

Have you even *been* to the Coke site? (http://www.cocacola.com/) I don't
see any Flash,

I do; in fact, it's the very first thing you see when you hit their
page, which I just did for the first time. And there's more Flash
further down, depending on where you go. Try "Coca Cola Worldwide", for
example. And the entire site stays true to the red and white corporate
design, which was a mandatory criteria for the designer of Coca Cola's
web presence, I'm sure.

 

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

I do; in fact, it's the very first thing you see when you hit their
page, which I just did for the first time. And there's more Flash
further down, depending on where you go. Try "Coca Cola Worldwide", for
example. And the entire site stays true to the red and white corporate
design, which was a mandatory criteria for the designer of Coca Cola's
web presence, I'm sure.

All I got was "Sorry. In order to view this site, you must enable
JavaScript in your browser".


Matthias

 

[Zak McGregor]

I do; in fact, it's the very first thing you see when you hit their
page, which I just did for the first time. And there's more Flash
further down, depending on where you go. Try "Coca Cola Worldwide", for
example. And the entire site stays true to the red and white corporate
design, which was a mandatory criteria for the designer of Coca Cola's
web presence, I'm sure.

I'm sure the colour scheme was. But Coca-Cola obviously don't try and ram
any Flash stuff down your throat, as I got no obnoxious "Install Flash"
messages (little do these thickos realise that I actually purposefully
_uninstall_ Flash if it ever accidentally makes it onto my machine).

If Coca-Cola does go and hide all the information that they're choosing
to present in Flash well then they've flattered to deceive - to the
extent that they have flattered of course ;-)

Ciao

Zak

 

[Kris]

<http://www.adaptivepath.com/>
(Though the important looking link at the top leads off the site to
Amazon; that puts me off)

Thanks for the example, Kris, it's a nice looking site. Though I didn't
find any link to Amazon? Everything seems to be okey-dokey.[/QUOTE]

"Observing the User Experience
By Mike Kuniavsky

Mike's New Book | A comprehensive how-to reference to more than a dozen
highly effective user research techniques. Buy it today"

It looks like an editorial, but is in reality an ad (for their own
product nevertheless). I would find it far more friendly if it was an
inbound link to some page about the book and find a link to Amazon there.

Nevertheless, great work by Douglas Bowman.
<http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2003/07/09/the_new_path.html>

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

Zak McGregor wrote:

I'm sure the colour scheme was. But Coca-Cola obviously don't try and ram
any Flash stuff down your throat, as I got no obnoxious "Install Flash"
messages (little do these thickos realise that I actually purposefully
_uninstall_ Flash if it ever accidentally makes it onto my machine).

No, they provide a no-Flash alternative page. No website should ever
trick one into Flash installation. The plug-ins users want or don't want
should always remain user's choice.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

Zak McGregor wrote:

If you swallow that tripe, fine.

What do you consider tripe about Whitecrest's statement? It is quite
true, you know.

If you are willing to learn & understand
the dynamics of this discussion and the whole theory behind what most of
the informed participants are trying to say, then stick around and do so.

How do you part the people here into informed and uninformed
participants, and do you consider Whitecrest and uninformed participant?

Otherwise drift off into your little dream world where choices and
decisions have no ramifications, no effect outside of those who make
them.

What gives you the idea that in my alleged "little dream world" choices
and decisions have no ramifications or no effect outside of those who
make them? Certainly I never said anything like it.

 

[Whitecrest]

Proving your first statement is the hard bit though. Exactly *why* would
your site make more money using Flash? And of course, prove it. Only then
do your next points have any value whatsoever.

www.cartoon network.com Please duplicate the the games my children can
play there with html. Because if you can't, then I get all the
customers.

 

[Whitecrest]

Present stats to prove this, and not Macromedia sponsored or derived ones
please.

Search google for stats Web usage and flash. you will find your answers
there.

It is your job to convince "them" that their content is best presented in
a manner that works. To not understand why this means standards-compliant
open formats is to not grasp the basic concept of the web.

What if the best way is flash? Or some fancy dhtml? I believe the web
should be an interactive playground. And fortunately with broadband
growing the way it is, more and more companies are leaning my way.

Again, you would be falling short of supplying the services you purport
to if you leave it at this.

I would be presenting the best way for the client to advertise or sell
their product. By making the site so generic that anyone in the world
can see it can see it, you could loose the effectiveness of the site
with those that would actually purchase your product.

Unfortunately for you, this isn't a matter of opinion, there is a
quantifiable right and wrong here.

Sorry, I disagree with you. It is completely opinion.

 

[Whitecrest]

Have you even *been* to the Coke site? (http://www.cocacola.com/) I don't
see any Flash, I do see abominable javascript-instead-of-normal-hrefs, but
there is a wealth of information there, and hardly any of it seems to be
of the advertising nature. There is information for investors, the history
of the company, information about their social and educational programmes,
information on the company itself, contact details, FAQs, etc.

Of course there are numerous issues with the site, but it is far from
being an advertising fluff piece.

Turn flash on to see the fluf that 80% or 90% of the rest of the world
see.

 

[Whitecrest]

All I got was "Sorry. In order to view this site, you must enable
JavaScript in your browser".

So you need to stop disabling your browser

 

[Whitecrest]

I am *so* pleased that you chose this precise example. <rubs hands>
I maintain a database of car specifications. It takes me hours opf my time
to collate and check the data, and to do the research on the cars.
Unfortunately for Subaru....
....No big deal for Subaru you might think, but my site gets over 10000
page views a day. So by denying access to this one non-Flash using person,
Subaru have denied a much larger audience potential exposure to their
information via a site that acquired it's info directly from Subaru's
site.

Have you written to Subaru to tell them this huge problem they are
facing? I am sure they are worried about how your site effects their
global sales...... (that was sarcasm)

 

[Whitecrest]

Either they didn't and/or they used crap data to
formulate their position with.

Better write to their marketing department and tell them the error of
their ways....

 

[Whitecrest]

If you swallow that tripe, fine....

So it is over your head then....