OT: Will non net-neutrality kill the internet?

N

Nick Keighley

what I find astounding is a 21st century adult can believe anything
else. Mankinds only guide is mankind.

A blind guide it is then.  [/QUOTE]

oh, no doubt. But the only one we have. Lets hope we find a reasonable
path before we blow ourselves up/cook ourselves etc. But standing
their like a lost toddler hoping for daddy to turn up is the council
of despair.
And surely you don't dispute Maxim's
unquantifiable quotient, his _transcendental_s.

no idea. I could google it but could you give me a quick summary? To
me "transcendental" is a class of numbers. I'm aware it has a "real
world" meaning but I've never really "got it". I've a pretty good idea
I *would* dispute it if I understood wahat it said.

What is dangerous to you is not stepping outside your thinking for a
moment to see that your comments prove my point. quod erat
demonstrandum.



Don't try and give me that bogus point.  Fairy story or no, has
nothing to do with something as a motivator.

I'm not convined that people who say things like "the original sin
behind Satan's controversy" actually understand that the event
described didn't actually happen. That they are myth. Why is the fall
of satan any more inspiring than the "redemption" of Lord Vadar. This
isn't an entirely facetious question. I've read a fair amount of
Nordic Myth I don't find Lucifer's fall speaks more deeply to me than
say Loki's murder of Baldur. The Lucifer myth sometimes seems to eb
used as an excuse for ignorance. "Its the bringer of light
(knowledge)- quick kill him!"
There may not be a fire in the theater, but yelling "Fire!" in a
theater is a motivator regardless.  'Group think' is studyable, the
Bible is studyable, non-words are studyable, even UFO's are studyable
as motivators in society that generate real effects on behavior.

I'd probably agree with the general sentiment here. I'm not claiming
myth is useless. But I am claiming that the disproportionate
importance given to certain myth groups *is* a bad idea.
 
C

Chris H

In message <[email protected]
s.com> said:
Really poignant commentary, Chris. It's so refreshing to read a
religious debate in a technical forum, especially when you're here to
offer such original ideas.

Well this debate is of a slightly higher calibre than many we have seen
around here of late.
 
N

Nick Keighley

Without God, the only alternative is survival of the fittest.

*that* old canard. "fittest" doesn't mean what you think it does. It
pays to live in a moral fashion in a moral society. You don't need
religion for this.
What if I'm bigger, stronger, and meaner than you?  Suppose I kill you,
rape your wife, and enslave your children?

you get put in prison for life. Some countries would execute you.
Who needs morals if Darwin was right.

So you don't understand basic morality or evolutionary biolgy or what
Darwin said. Religious people like you scare me. You need your god in
order to restrain you from doing evil things. Why not just be a nice
person? Why not treat other people how you'd like to be treated
yourself?
 
C

Chris H

In message <[email protected]
s.com> said:
I actually textually searched an online version of the bible. "satan"
does appear but not in Genesis. It just amazes me that religious
people don't know this stuff!

Which version..... there are many versions of the Bible in use
currently. Not to mention the many historical versions.

If it is the word of God them God is constantly changing it's mind.
 
C

Chris H

John Kelly said:
Without God, the only alternative is survival of the fittest.

What if I'm bigger, stronger, and meaner than you? Suppose I kill you,
rape your wife, and enslave your children?
Who needs morals if Darwin was right.

US Foreign policy has proved that.
 
J

John Kelly

*that* old canard. "fittest" doesn't mean what you think it does. It
pays to live in a moral fashion in a moral society. You don't need
religion for this.

You're confusing religion with God. Much religion is false.

you get put in prison for life. Some countries would execute you.

Law got its start with Moses. Before the flood, it was every man for
himself, with no police to apprehend the wicked. Murder and mayhem was
an everyday thing. Talk about survival of the fittest. Whiny little
computer geeks would have no chance.

So you don't understand basic morality or evolutionary biolgy or what
Darwin said. Religious people like you scare me. You need your god in
order to restrain you from doing evil things. Why not just be a nice
person? Why not treat other people how you'd like to be treated
yourself?

Man deciding for himself what is right and moral eventually leads to
chaos, like before the flood.
 
C

Chris H

John Kelly said:
You're confusing religion with God. Much religion is false.

Not found one that isn't yet. Got any candidates?

Law got its start with Moses. Before the flood, it was every man for
himself, with no police to apprehend the wicked. Murder and mayhem was
an everyday thing.

You need a lesson in history. "The Flood" is not historical and yes I
have been to Buyuk Agri Also there are civilisations with Law dating
back over 6 thousand years.

Talk about survival of the fittest. Whiny little
computer geeks would have no chance.

A lot of the "whiny little computer geeks" I know are ex special
forces... Even I have a military background.

Man deciding for himself what is right and moral eventually leads to
chaos, like before the flood.

Which flood? Dates and location please?
 
T

Tim Streater

Chris H said:
Not found one that isn't yet. Got any candidates?



You need a lesson in history. "The Flood" is not historical and yes I
have been to Buyuk Agri Also there are civilisations with Law dating
back over 6 thousand years.

Isn't there some notion that the Med breaking through the Bosphorus and
flooding the Black Sea supposed to have given rise to the flood notion?
 
C

Chris H

Tim said:
Isn't there some notion that the Med breaking through the Bosphorus and
flooding the Black Sea supposed to have given rise to the flood notion?

That is possible but the Anatolian Plateau on which Buyuk Agri sits is
over 6,000 feet above the med....
 
K

Kenny McCormack

You're confusing religion with God. Much religion is false.

s/Much/All/p

--
"The anti-regulation business ethos is based on the charmingly naive notion
that people will not do unspeakable things for money." - Dana Carpender

Quoted by Paul Ciszek (pciszek at panix dot com). But what I want to know
is why is this diet/low-carb food author doing making pithy political/economic
statements?

But the above quote is dead-on, because, the thing is - business in one
breath tells us they don't need to be regulated (that they can morally
self-regulate), then in the next breath tells us that corporations are
amoral entities which have no obligations to anyone except their officers
and shareholders, then in the next breath they tell us they don't need to be
regulated (that they can morally self-regulate) ...
 
M

Maxim S. Shatskih

no idea. I could google it but could you give me a quick summary? To
me "transcendental" is a class of numbers. I'm aware it has a "real
world" meaning but I've never really "got it".

"Beyound comprehension", or even "arcane".

In some context, "immanent" is the vice-versa word of "transcendental".
 
M

Maxim S. Shatskih

I thought that promoting promiscuous behavior (such as encouraging people to
become physically involved prior to marrying, ...) and socialist economics
(central planned economies, promoting the welfare system, ...) was one of
the major central points of liberalism?...

Don't know about promiscuity, but socialism is vice versa of liberalism.

Socialism require the increase of governemental control over economy, which is just plain against the liberal ideas.
as for atheists, AFAIK the central claim is that only the material world
exists,

Something like. Strictly, this is "materialism".
being a lack of evidence or any real verifiable mechanism

No, this is "agnosticism".

This _alone_ is "agnosticism". To become "atheism", the _belief that the transcendental powers and entitties do not exist_ must be added.

Agnosticism is just Occam's razor. Atheism is a _belief_.
 
I

ImpalerCore

The Bible also shares several books with the Koran.  All three religions
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all from the same root and book.

However it is arrogance beyond belief for any human to claim to know the
mind of God.

And it is exactly that reason the leading religious Jews at the time
wanted to get rid of him. But it was even more exasperating for them
because not only did Jesus claim that he knew the mind of God, he
claimed that he *was* God, come in human form, but yet one and the
same with Him.

I'm sure that the religious Jews at the time saw that as exceedingly
arrogant, that he was out of his mind. At the same time, Jesus
referred to the leading Jews as stiff-necked, brood of vipers, because
they would not accept his evidence of his supernatural origin, which
consisted of fulfilling prophecy and his miraculous deeds. One thing
is for sure, Jesus was not a unifying persona then, and he's certainly
not one now (Luke 12:49-53).
 
C

Chris H

In message <[email protected]
s.com> said:
And it is exactly that reason the leading religious Jews at the time
wanted to get rid of him. But it was even more exasperating for them
because not only did Jesus claim that he knew the mind of God, he
claimed that he *was* God, come in human form, but yet one and the
same with Him.

There are many who claim that they:
know the mind of God
are God in human form
and one with God.

You can find dozens of them in any temple/church/mosque/synagouge/gudura
t etc
I'm sure that the religious Jews at the time saw that as exceedingly
arrogant, that he was out of his mind.

Aren't they all?
One thing
is for sure, Jesus was not a unifying persona then, and he's certainly
not one now

Agreed.... As the RC, CofE, Mormons, Moslems, Methodists, JW's etc etc
 
C

Chris H

Kenny McCormack said:
s/Much/All/p

Some bits of some religions are historical fact.
Some bits are good ideas.

On the whole the implementation of the Religion (any religion) usually
causes so much pain and suffering it outweighs any good it does.
 
T

Tim Streater

Chris H said:
That is possible but the Anatolian Plateau on which Buyuk Agri sits is
over 6,000 feet above the med....

I'm not talking about Mt Ararat or whatever its called, I'm talking
about the rise in sea-level of the Black Sea due to such a breakthrough.
Doubtless some folks living at the time would construe that as a flood
and gossip does the rest.
 
C

Chris H

Tim said:
I'm not talking about Mt Ararat or whatever its called, I'm talking
about the rise in sea-level of the Black Sea due to such a
breakthrough. Doubtless some folks living at the time would construe
that as a flood and gossip does the rest.

Agreed. However that would not flood enough to get up to the plateau
never mind Ararat
 
I

ImpalerCore

Reading the Bible does not equate to reading the mind of God.  At most,
it gives you insight into the minds of the mortal men who wrote it.

It depends on how you look at it. First off, I'll say that how you
perceive the Bible depends on how you *choose* to look at it. The
existence of choice is a fundamental component of faith. Let me give
you three possible scenarios.

1. There is no supernatural creator that exists outside the rules and
laws of the observable universe.

2. There is a supernatural creator that exists outside of the
observable universe, may have created the universe and possibly life,
but no longer interacts with us in any way.

3. There is a supernatural creator that exists outside of the
observable universe, and while not directly observable, has revealed
himself through interactions at given times within his creation.

The Bible purports to be a collection of stories relating the
experiences of a relatively select few people who have had somewhat
indirect (but still miraculous) interactions with God, ultimately
culminating in the most direct experience with the persona of God
claimed in the form of Jesus Christ.
Prove that it was authored (or even inspired) by God.

The Bible doesn't try to prove itself. Hebrews 11 in particular
reflects on this with statements like

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who
comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who
earnestly seek him."

In fact, it explicitly presupposes that belief in God relies on a
decision of faith. But faith is not a decision to be made in the
absence of evidence, for how could one choose to believe one thing
over another. What is that evidence the Bible uses to buttress its
faith? It's based on the accounts of people experiencing miraculous
things. And by miraculous, I mean things that could not happen within
the normal observable framework of the universe we live in.

Of course one can take the stance that there are no miracles, only
unexplained natural phenomenon. Let's say that you witness something
dramatic, like the parting of the Red Sea. Would you believe that was
of supernatural origin, or not? With an attitude where you don't
believe in miracles, it's easy to throw that experience away as an
illusion, a trick of the mind, or maybe some astounding unexplained
interaction of the laws of physics. Other people may take that one
experience and believe that the God of the Jews is real and he is the
"true" God. The point is that your attitude frames how you view and
experience the world.

I believe the strongest evidence of a supernatural interaction with
our universe is the existence of life, including ourselves. This is
in my opinion why evolution vs creation seems to be the recent focal
point of the debate on the existence or non-existence of God. The
question of faith goes down to, do you believe that there is a
naturally occurring environment that allows the properties of life to
evolve? Most of these positions for or against are arguments of
incredulity. Whether it's complexity, the number of species, or the
huge amount of time needed, the fact remains that the origin of life
has not been observed and continues to be difficult to observe. (The
best we're doing now to my knowledge is to throw DNA in the proverbial
blender and trying to fit the jigsaw puzzle pieces together. We're
going to need to do much better than that to recreate an environment
to create life. The ability to read a DNA strand without destroying
it is the minimum step to even think about creating life as we know
it. And the kicker is that as the process to manipulate life becomes
more and more complex, the less likely a "natural" environment can be
found to derive it, hence the reason to append an arbitrary amount of
time as a fudge factor to get evolution to work.) So it remains from
my point of view that the belief of the origin of life still requires
the proverbial "leap of faith".
It's simplest to fall back on the anthropic principle here.  There may,
in fact, be (or have been) millions of different universes, all with
different properties; we see the properties of _this_ universe as they
are because it's the only one that would allow us to exist and ask the
question.

Sorry, but this in my opinion is no better or worse than scenario
number 2 above, since it's without any tangible evidence that this is
the case. Have you or anyone you know or any historical records of
people who claim to have traveled to or interacted with these
alternate universes (at least the Bible has that)? Nick might as well
add this to his list of fairy tale stories.

But feel free to keep theorizing. If you write enough interesting
things, usenet scholars 2000 years from now can argue about who you
really were or even whether you really existed or not ;-)

Best regards,
John D.
 
B

BGB / cr88192

Maxim S. Shatskih said:
I thought that promoting promiscuous behavior (such as encouraging people
to
become physically involved prior to marrying, ...) and socialist economics
(central planned economies, promoting the welfare system, ...) was one of
the major central points of liberalism?...

<--
Don't know about promiscuity, but socialism is vice versa of liberalism.

Socialism require the increase of governemental control over economy, which
is just plain against the liberal ideas.
-->

ok, I thought most liberals wanted more government control, so that there
could be more welfare and medicare and similar...
as well as the whole "corporations are evil" thing, and the whole
environmentalism thing, possibly veganism and PETA-like ideas, ...

and wanting things like population controls, and a unified world government,
....

or similar...

as for atheists, AFAIK the central claim is that only the material world
exists,

<--
Something like. Strictly, this is "materialism".
-->
being a lack of evidence or any real verifiable mechanism

<--
No, this is "agnosticism".

This _alone_ is "agnosticism". To become "atheism", the _belief that the
transcendental powers and entitties do not exist_ must be added.

Agnosticism is just Occam's razor. Atheism is a _belief_.
-->

ok, in the past, I was agnostic. not as much anymore...

I had just thought before that the particular combination
(materialism+occam's razor) could lead one to conclude that there was
nothing supernatural.


or such...
 

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