Re: CSS for positioning

J

Jonathan N. Little

Lewis said:
Cigarettes were recommended by doctors for a variety of uses, including
upset stomachs, laryngitis (!!), and stress. They are actually good for
relieving stress.
Click to expand...

Death is a good reliever of stress as well, but not recommended ;-)
 
P

Peter

I really can't be specific except to say that is the search engine stats for
one gigantic website that I work on.... sooo .. while people who hit other
sites may find google to be in a higher percentage, it is not that way
across the board for all websites. MSN search engine directs more traffic
to this particular site than Google.
Click to expand...

Does seem a little unusual. Just checked 3 sites for search engine links
and Google was 87%, 83.5% and 71%. Way out ahead in all 3 cases. Just to
be sure here, why did you state, 'and so on up to 50 spiders/bots'. The
percentages I am referring to have nothing to do with the spiders/bots
section of the stats that are available to me. They are specifically
about how many connections have come to these sites as a result from a
search engine 'search'.
 
J

Jenn

You act as if coding strictly is really any more difficult than *not*
coding strictly. There is precious little time difference once you
get the hang of it, and the strict coding makes tracking down certain
types of errors sooo much easier.

(Have you ever gotten a stray '>' in your document somewhere that
turned out to be from <b>bad</b>> markup? Sans validator.. enjoy
looking. With validator, it will tell you line and character number.)
Click to expand...

Actually.. yes! Have you ever had code that gave an error and it was due to
a space that you can't see? LOL

btw ... when I use Dreamweaver, it automatically sets the doctype as this:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />

The pages I create using this work fine, but I've seen others say this
version shouldn't be used anymore? I work with alot of code that interacts
with ascx and aspx pages, so a validator will throw an error even tho the
code needs to be there to interact with the server code.

All these different doctypes, although they supposedly have their own
standard.. some are use still and others say don't use them now. There's
alot of arguing that I've seen over this. Can you explain?
 
D

Doug Miller

Doug said:
If I was of a mindset to bug someone who I thought was killfiling me, I'd do
it right to begin with..... I wouldn't mess with doing it once or twice
between the computers I use... but I *don't really have the mindset* to do
that ... LOL

Not that I really need to explain what I do to anyone..
Click to expand...

That's true, you don't, and the explanation isn't really important. I'm just
pointing out to you what it looks like, or may look like, to others.
Click to expand...
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> <html
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> <head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
/>
Click to expand...

AH.. yes.. XHTML .. the failed idea.

A short history of the web to explain where XHTML came from.

In the early days of the web, even back with the very first web browser,
it was noticed that people made minor mistakes in their HTML. At that
point, the web browser makers made a bad call... they decided to fix bad
web pages, rather than rejecting them.

So, years later, and the techs all realized this was a bad call, but
there was a lot of stuff already in existence that would never be
updated... but they wanted a 'fresh slate' to start from ... so they
decided that XHTML would be the fresh start.

XHTML pages -- served as XHTML -- would be required to be well formed and
properly passing validation and all of that.
Great idea.

Trouble is, Microsoft. IE never supported XHTML. Still doesn't. So, in
order to use XHTML, you had to lie -- and in your server headers say that
it was HTML. (The line:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"

does the same thing. It "undoes" the XHTML.)

So, now you had this:
XHTML was /not/ compatible with HTML for reasons I won't get into the
history of.
XHTML was being served as HTML.
Browsers saw XHTML as badly formed HTML and thus ...
.... you continued the very problem you were trying to avoid.

XHTML was an experiment that failed. With a very few edges cases in some
rare circumstances, it offered no real advantage over HTML. It was
mutated into HTML ...

The reason its popular? It was a buzzword!

Everybody wanted to be the 'latest and greatest' bandwagon ... the name
got press coverage, so everyone wanted to use it ... but very few people
had any technical reason to do so what-so-ever.
The pages I create using this work fine, but I've seen others say this
version shouldn't be used anymore? I work with alot of code that
interacts with ascx and aspx pages, so a validator will throw an error
even tho the code needs to be there to interact with the server code.
Click to expand...

Browsers auto-correct ...unfortunately.
All these different doctypes, although they supposedly have their own
standard.. some are use still and others say don't use them now.
There's alot of arguing that I've seen over this. Can you explain?
Click to expand...

There are really only four doctypes that I would say matter.

HTML 4.01 strict. What all new projects should be done with.

HTML 4.01 transitional. IFF you are upgrading an ancient page. But I
prefer to rewrite and go with strict anyways.

XHTML: It shows that someone is either using an improperly configured
tool, or they are just following the bandwagon with no thought as to
why. If the page can be viewed under IE, then despite whatever they are
trying to do --- they aren't using XHTML.

HTML 5: The new emerging standard. I'd not use it except in
"experimenetal" or "cutting edge" projects.
 
J

Jenn

Peter said:
Does seem a little unusual. Just checked 3 sites for search engine
links and Google was 87%, 83.5% and 71%. Way out ahead in all 3
cases. Just to be sure here, why did you state, 'and so on up to 50
spiders/bots'. The percentages I am referring to have nothing to do
with the spiders/bots section of the stats that are available to me.
They are specifically about how many connections have come to these
sites as a result from a search engine 'search'.
Click to expand...


Sorry ... I didn't mean to be unclear... I was looking at both statistics
at the same time... Initially I was talking about the spiders/bots. My
apologies for the mix up.

Looking at Referrer stats .... 80% of our traffic visits on our site are
directly without any search engine referral due to direct advertising I
imagine ..... 9% hits our site via Google, and the remaining 11% hits our
site via other search engine referrers.... thats just the last 2 months
average... it changes.
 
J

Jenn

Jeremy said:
AH.. yes.. XHTML .. the failed idea.

A short history of the web to explain where XHTML came from.

In the early days of the web, even back with the very first web
browser, it was noticed that people made minor mistakes in their
HTML. At that point, the web browser makers made a bad call... they
decided to fix bad web pages, rather than rejecting them.

So, years later, and the techs all realized this was a bad call, but
there was a lot of stuff already in existence that would never be
updated... but they wanted a 'fresh slate' to start from ... so they
decided that XHTML would be the fresh start.

XHTML pages -- served as XHTML -- would be required to be well formed
and properly passing validation and all of that.
Great idea.

Trouble is, Microsoft. IE never supported XHTML. Still doesn't.
So, in order to use XHTML, you had to lie -- and in your server
headers say that it was HTML. (The line:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1"

does the same thing. It "undoes" the XHTML.)

So, now you had this:
XHTML was /not/ compatible with HTML for reasons I won't get into the
history of.
XHTML was being served as HTML.
Browsers saw XHTML as badly formed HTML and thus ...
... you continued the very problem you were trying to avoid.

XHTML was an experiment that failed. With a very few edges cases in
some rare circumstances, it offered no real advantage over HTML. It
was mutated into HTML ...

The reason its popular? It was a buzzword!

Everybody wanted to be the 'latest and greatest' bandwagon ... the
name got press coverage, so everyone wanted to use it ... but very
few people had any technical reason to do so what-so-ever.


Browsers auto-correct ...unfortunately.


There are really only four doctypes that I would say matter.

HTML 4.01 strict. What all new projects should be done with.

HTML 4.01 transitional. IFF you are upgrading an ancient page. But I
prefer to rewrite and go with strict anyways.

XHTML: It shows that someone is either using an improperly configured
tool, or they are just following the bandwagon with no thought as to
why. If the page can be viewed under IE, then despite whatever they
are trying to do --- they aren't using XHTML.

HTML 5: The new emerging standard. I'd not use it except in
"experimenetal" or "cutting edge" projects.
Click to expand...

thanks for the explanation ... I've read a bit about the different
doctypes.... the backend of this gigantic website has this type of doctype
that I posted above, which I have no access to change it. I only have
access to using their server code as they wrote it to interact with that
doctype,... so I'm stuck with it and have to make whatever I do work with
what they have done. It can be frustrating to want to fix things when they
lock access because of global issues for the site. New things are coming up
soon, tho.. so possibly things will change in the doctype they want to
use....
 
N

Neredbojias

AH.. yes.. XHTML .. the failed idea.

A short history of the web to explain where XHTML came from.

In the early days of the web, even back with the very first web
browser, it was noticed that people made minor mistakes in their
HTML. At that point, the web browser makers made a bad call... they
decided to fix bad web pages, rather than rejecting them.

So, years later, and the techs all realized this was a bad call, but
there was a lot of stuff already in existence that would never be
updated... but they wanted a 'fresh slate' to start from ... so they
decided that XHTML would be the fresh start.

XHTML pages -- served as XHTML -- would be required to be well formed
and properly passing validation and all of that.
Great idea.

Trouble is, Microsoft. IE never supported XHTML. Still doesn't.
So, in order to use XHTML, you had to lie -- and in your server
headers say that it was HTML. (The line:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1"

does the same thing. It "undoes" the XHTML.)

So, now you had this:
XHTML was /not/ compatible with HTML for reasons I won't get into the
history of.
XHTML was being served as HTML.
Browsers saw XHTML as badly formed HTML and thus ...
... you continued the very problem you were trying to avoid.

XHTML was an experiment that failed. With a very few edges cases in
some rare circumstances, it offered no real advantage over HTML. It
was mutated into HTML ...

The reason its popular? It was a buzzword!

Everybody wanted to be the 'latest and greatest' bandwagon ... the
name got press coverage, so everyone wanted to use it ... but very
few people had any technical reason to do so what-so-ever.
Click to expand...

I've never seen that explained any better. Kudos!
 
D

dorayme

"Jonathan N. Little said:
Different background? I have a degree in Fine Arts, Ad a career in
main-frame computers, but started web design in the very same manner.
Trial and error, peeking at code, books... I'd guess there are many here
self-taught. I just did not stay static and satisfied with what I did in
the mid 90s.
Click to expand...

Perhaps background was not quite the most exact word I could have
used. People are different and have different abilities and
propensities and experience behind the CV bullet point list of
past activities. There are many ways people seem to feel gives
them the right to get stuck into others in unseemingly manner.

One of them is simply knowing more. But another is rarely
noticed: that you have struggled to overcome difficulties in
certain ways and succeeded in certain ways and that gives you
rights too. Well, it does not give you rights to hurt other
people's feelings unnecessarily. This is not a matter of opinion,
it is not some relative thing, you think this, I think that, we
are all entitled to our opinions, all is valid. No, it is a
simple fact. Accept it.

Maybe, but not the one that recognize that her "arguments" are mostly
false. When challenged offers "proof" with no basis. And then is
dismissive to anyone who does offer credible evidence to the contrary.
Although there are much larger sites out there, mine is not small and is
contrary to her assertion that validation is only possible with small
hobby sites.
Click to expand...

I am not disputing all of this. Perhaps if many of the chief
offenders had been more polite and patient, the Oklahoman lady's
html/css soul, as some see it, could be saved. Since so many of
you have been so awful, I feel quite inhibited in offering the
least criticism of her ideas and practices. It is a sin to do or
act or say anything which, in the opinion of the reasonable
person, would inhibit a dorayme. This is a fact. Accept it.
 
F

freemont

Jeremy J Starcher said:
I know that I (and many other web builders) don't care about "pixel-
perfect" .. [...] It looks
good at anything we load it on and the minor variations are just that
... minor.
Click to expand...

I feel the same way about sites I create...
Click to expand...

Do you? If you truly feel that way, and you want your sites to work
correctly under all circumstances, and you take great pride in your
efforts, why, oh why do you display such insouciance when it is pointed
out to you that your favorite site looks like this:

<http://freemontsoffice.com/test/jenn/cdkdistribution.png>

That's just the home page. Some pages have even more scrollbars.

Doesn't that /bother/ you?? Does it concern you in the least?

And don't cop out with that "the client likes it" shit. Enough of that.
The client doesn't know any better. _You_ are supposed to.

For now, forget about about whether you follow standards or use XHTML or
believe in validation or do things your way or another person's way. /The
site doesn't work./

The site doesn't work. Why don't you care?
 
D

Doug Miller

question .. the validator says it was checked as XHTML 1.0 Transitional.
Click to expand...

The validator checks a[n] [X]HTML document against whatever DOCTYPE the
document declares that it is.

ibm.com and ca.gov validate as XHTML 1.0 Strict
navy.mil as HTML 4.01 Transitional
I thought I've seen people here say that that particular doctype was old and
shouldn't be used now? 1999?
Click to expand...

Probably you should go back and re-read those comments...
 
D

Doug Miller

question .. the validator says it was checked as XHTML 1.0 Transitional.
Click to expand...

ibm.com and ca.gov validate as XHTML 1.0 Strict, navy.mil as HTML 4.01
Transitional.

The validator checks a site against whatever DOCTYPE the site declares itself
as.
I thought I've seen people here say that that particular doctype was old and
shouldn't be used now? 1999?
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should go back and re-read those posts. I think you may have
misunderstood.
 
J

Jenn

dorayme said:
Perhaps background was not quite the most exact word I could have
used. People are different and have different abilities and
propensities and experience behind the CV bullet point list of
past activities. There are many ways people seem to feel gives
them the right to get stuck into others in unseemingly manner.

One of them is simply knowing more. But another is rarely
noticed: that you have struggled to overcome difficulties in
certain ways and succeeded in certain ways and that gives you
rights too. Well, it does not give you rights to hurt other
people's feelings unnecessarily. This is not a matter of opinion,
it is not some relative thing, you think this, I think that, we
are all entitled to our opinions, all is valid. No, it is a
simple fact. Accept it.
Click to expand...

I came here hoping to find people like myself .. not carbon copies, but
people who I could talk "websites" with... talk about loving the creativity
of it and the excitement of figuring out how things work ... talk about the
customer who wanted the world and how, somehow, we figured it out and gave
them what they wanted.

dorayme .. you've been one person who showed me kindness. You let me be who
I am and didn't just get angry at me because I don't fit a specific mold.
You actually gave me encouragement and showed me that you accepted me as I
am. I've never had the opportunity to be around other people who did
websites before. I didn't really know it would feel like a feeding frenzy
in a shark tank, tho. One cut, then blood and drawn... and then a violent
feeding frenzy.

I am not disputing all of this. Perhaps if many of the chief
offenders had been more polite and patient, the Oklahoman lady's
html/css soul, as some see it, could be saved.
Click to expand...

I think this is the second time you're referred to the html/css soul ...
it's an interesting comparison for sure. There's a lot of things I'd love
to learn, but many of them I don't know about to even ask the right
questions, and who wants to ask questions to people who just want to tell
you how stupid you are? Well.. I'm not stupid, and I had to have a good
measure of intelligence to get this far just on my own. I'd rather keep
learning on my own than allow such hateful people to get to me. I don't
need people to tell me I'm stupid... I need people to understand where I'm
coming from and put themselves in my shoes for a while. I can't afford to
let such people get into my head and drag me down because I've worked too
hard on my own studying and learning so I could get a good job. I'm
successful, now, and I intend on working hard to keep being successful, too.
It would be nice, tho, to find a place within a group of people who enjoy
this like I enjoy it.
Since so many of
you have been so awful, I feel quite inhibited in offering the
least criticism of her ideas and practices. It is a sin to do or
act or say anything which, in the opinion of the reasonable
person, would inhibit a dorayme. This is a fact. Accept it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for being kind to me, dorayme .. and thanks to the few men here
who have also been nice to me. I think I will try killfiling a few people ..
one at a time .. until those left are good for me personally to interact
with... and not after my blood.

I have an idea ... some here like graphics.. like you and I ... have you
ever participated in a graphics tennis match game? Have you heard of it
before? It is so much fun. In my photo album, I have several images I
created that were a result of a graphics tennis match.

Here are the links:
http://pqlr.org/photogallery/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=0
http://pqlr.org/photogallery/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=1
http://pqlr.org/photogallery/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=0
http://pqlr.org/photogallery/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=1
http://pqlr.org/photogallery/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=2
http://pqlr.org/photogallery/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=3

This is soley done for the sheer joy of creating images. Are you
interested? Anyone else interested? I'll post a new thread if anyone is
interested. I'd like to do something that would be fun here......
 
J

Jenn

Adrienne said:
No, it means that it's an indication, not that it is so. If you see a
dark haired, olive skinned person with a sombrero and a poncho on, you
might assume that person speaks Spanish, right? It could just be an
actor, or someone wearing a party costume.

This is why I have one identity that I use all the time. That way,
if I post something on one machine, and someone responds to it, my
newsreader alerts me to it, even though I am on another machine.
Click to expand...

I only go by Jenn on these ngs ... I haven't changed that. I don't see a
problem with that.
 
D

dorayme

Because changing your nym after being publicly killfiled is one of the
characteristics of a troll.
Click to expand...

And is there a special characteristic (that is not descriptive of
the activity) for people who just keep on hounding lone
Oklahomans?

My my, the energy that some people have put into chasing down
every imaginable mistake by Jenn in such contemptuous terms must
have so drained the pursuers that the task of killfiling her (big
deal, three times) would have assumed the order of difficulty of
making a human return trip to Mars. It was, like, *so* hard to
tell that it was *Jenn*, she was *so* good and sophisticated at
hiding her identities!

One can have trouble killfiling all kinds of people, many of whom
would not be trolls but mean sobs with just one address, they pop
up here and there in different usenet groups that one does not
expect and does not think to make provision for.

It would not occur to these poor chaps to stop announcing with
such great fanfare *publicly* that they are going to kf someone.

Who do they think they are, High Court judges in the days of
hanging in murder cases donning black caps?
 

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