Re: CSS for positioning

J

Jenn

Jonathan said:
Nan's specializes in the animals, it has just been her passion. She
paints all animals, has done some horse portraits lately, but being a
foundation Ibizan Hound breeder for 36 years tended to tended to
direct the focus towards dogs. My focus is in landscape and
still-life.

A bit of all of the above. Some bits we draw and I scan and convert to
vector. Then I composite with vector drawn objects in CorelDRAW.

ahh .. Corel ... I haven't used that particular program recently... some
years ago I had a chance to play with it tho. I ended up getting the
Photoshop instead. I think I enjoy creating graphics about as much as
websites, but when I'm in the process of playing with the graphics it takes
first place.

I know you may be busy with other things, but would you be interested in a
game called a tennis match? It's sort of a challenge to participants to
create images just for the love of it? It is done casually .. in spare time
over a period of days or even weeks depending on how much people want to
participate.
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

thanks for the explanation ... I've read a bit about the different
doctypes.... the backend of this gigantic website has this type of
doctype that I posted above, which I have no access to change it. I
only have access to using their server code as they wrote it to interact
with that doctype,... so I'm stuck with it and have to make whatever I
do work with what they have done. It can be frustrating to want to fix
things when they lock access because of global issues for the site. New
things are coming up soon, tho.. so possibly things will change in the
doctype they want to use....

I can respect that you can't change the doctype ... I understand that
sometimes people are put into boxes and have to function in ... less than
idea environments.
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

On Thu, 13 May 2010 22:30:19 +0000, Neredbojias wrote:

[ XHTML discussion snipped ]
I've never seen that explained any better. Kudos!

*He takes a deep bow*

Don't applaud! Just throw money.
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Jonathan said:
Yes this is getting ridiculous! Sure it is easier to KF with a
consistent munged email but surely you folks can filter on the word
"Jenn" which is common to all her posts? Or if not, put three entries
in your bozo bin filter.

Of course. I was attempting to explain to her why she was getting the
troll label. People had killfiled her, then she popped up again. And
again. It must have pissed off some folks.
 
J

Jenn

Jeremy said:
I can respect that you can't change the doctype ... I understand that
sometimes people are put into boxes and have to function in ... less
than idea environments.

Maybe you can explain one other thing ... If this doctype is so
undesireable to use now, why are so many gigantic sites still using it? It's
confusing to see the big objections here to using it when I see these large
sites that still use that doctype.

I was also looking here on this page,
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_doctype.asp, and from what the
descriptions are, I would be most likely to use HTML 4.01 Transitional
because it "contains all HTML elements and attributes, INCLUDING
presentational and deprecated elements (like font)".

When I created my pqlr.org pages ... there was no such thing as doctype..
and yes.. that was a long time ago... the only updates or changes I've ever
done to it since I created it was edit old links that were out of date.
Would that be a correct doctype to use? I'm curious as to why my site still
renders in browsers sufficiently with no doctype at all, yet everyone says
that I need the doctype? Why do I need the doctype if it works in browsers
as it is?
 
J

Jenn

Jeremy said:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 22:30:19 +0000, Neredbojias wrote:

[ XHTML discussion snipped ]
I've never seen that explained any better. Kudos!

*He takes a deep bow*

Don't applaud! Just throw money.

LOL (yes.. I'm laughing!) will pennies do? :)
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

Maybe you can explain one other thing ... If this doctype is so
undesireable to use now, why are so many gigantic sites still using it?
It's confusing to see the big objections here to using it when I see
these large sites that still use that doctype.

Because it is a buzzword!

Management seldom makes decision based on sound technical advice.
Management makes decisions based upon what it reads in some magazine or
another and for a short time XHTML was marketed as a silver bullet.

Management: "So, I've read about this new XHTML thing"
Tech: (Oh-oh)
Management: They say it will solve web site compatibility issues.
Tech: "They .. say that?"
Management: "OH yes. The article was quite clear on that. I don't
remember how, but it had something to do with markup. So, we want our
websites to be good. Switch everything to XHTML."
Tech: "Uh... XHTML doesn't work with Internet Explorer."
Management: "They said there was some fix for that. Do the research
man. I want to tell the board of directors we are running the latest and
greatest thing next week."

I was also looking here on this page,
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_doctype.asp, and from what the
descriptions are, I would be most likely to use HTML 4.01 Transitional
because it "contains all HTML elements and attributes, INCLUDING
presentational and deprecated elements (like font)".

w3schools, like the Hitchiker's Guide the Galaxy, "... has many omissions
and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate ... "

Despite the name, w3schools has no relationship with W3C. However, in
this rare case, they are right.

HTML 4.01 transitional does include presentational elements, which is
exactly why I [and many others] recommend not using it. Its helpful if
you are, as the name says "transitioning" from something older to
something current.
When I created my pqlr.org pages ... there was no such thing as
doctype.. and yes.. that was a long time ago... the only updates or
changes I've ever done to it since I created it was edit old links that
were out of date. Would that be a correct doctype to use? I'm curious
as to why my site still renders in browsers sufficiently with no doctype
at all, yet everyone says that I need the doctype? Why do I need the
doctype if it works in browsers as it is?

Long long ago there was no doctype, that I understand. But in November
24, 1995 the first DOCTYPE for HTML 2.0 was published.

So if your pages are older than that, you are OK.

Here is another little bit of web history:

Long ago, there were the Great Browser Wars between Netscape and
Microsoft. During that time, each of them went in different routes and
you ended up with pages that displayed correctly on one browser or the
other.

Then, a small amount of sanity came in.
The "4.01 strict" doctype.

Complex things render *differently* in "strict mode" and in "quicks
mode."

Rather than trying to explain it all here, I'll point you to a longer
article.

http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/bonus/render-mode.html

Short answer: More, many more, thinks work the same between the various
browsers in 'Strict' mode as opposed to 'Quirks' mode.

Since I am lazy and don't want to do more work that I need to, I use the
'4.01 strict.'
 
N

Neredbojias

Perhaps people will then STOP attacking me? That would be nice.
Then perhaps I would actually find something I am interested to
discuss with people.

A year or 2 ago, I posted a dozen or so lines of php code in response
to someone asking about how to do a particular thing in php. The code
illustrated those means along with a few lines before and after for
context. Well, the very next time I looked at the thread, some asshole
had come on and posted "Your code is broken!" His ultimate point was
that early-on in my blurb, I'd used a suboptimal method for determining
which browser had sent a file, and in that sense he was right.
However, that specific peccidillo (sp?) had nothing to do with the
pertinent information I was illustrating and only served to destroy my
credibility with the OP and piss me off greatly. Think how much better
it would have been had this guy replied with something like, "Hey, bub,
there's a more accurate way to do that browser-sniffing shtick if you
just... etc." Then he's not an enemy but a friend; not an asshole but
someone really trying to help as opposed to massaging their own ego.
THAT'S what many people here need to learn.
 
J

Jenn

Jeremy said:
Maybe you can explain one other thing ... If this doctype is so
undesireable to use now, why are so many gigantic sites still using
it? It's confusing to see the big objections here to using it when I
see these large sites that still use that doctype.

Because it is a buzzword!

Management seldom makes decision based on sound technical advice.
Management makes decisions based upon what it reads in some magazine
or another and for a short time XHTML was marketed as a silver bullet.

Management: "So, I've read about this new XHTML thing"
Tech: (Oh-oh)
Management: They say it will solve web site compatibility issues.
Tech: "They .. say that?"
Management: "OH yes. The article was quite clear on that. I don't
remember how, but it had something to do with markup. So, we want our
websites to be good. Switch everything to XHTML."
Tech: "Uh... XHTML doesn't work with Internet Explorer."
Management: "They said there was some fix for that. Do the research
man. I want to tell the board of directors we are running the latest
and greatest thing next week."

I was also looking here on this page,
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_doctype.asp, and from what the
descriptions are, I would be most likely to use HTML 4.01
Transitional because it "contains all HTML elements and attributes,
INCLUDING presentational and deprecated elements (like font)".

w3schools, like the Hitchiker's Guide the Galaxy, "... has many
omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least wildly
inaccurate ... "

Despite the name, w3schools has no relationship with W3C. However, in
this rare case, they are right.

HTML 4.01 transitional does include presentational elements, which is
exactly why I [and many others] recommend not using it. Its helpful
if you are, as the name says "transitioning" from something older to
something current.
When I created my pqlr.org pages ... there was no such thing as
doctype.. and yes.. that was a long time ago... the only updates or
changes I've ever done to it since I created it was edit old links
that were out of date. Would that be a correct doctype to use? I'm
curious as to why my site still renders in browsers sufficiently
with no doctype at all, yet everyone says that I need the doctype?
Why do I need the doctype if it works in browsers as it is?

Long long ago there was no doctype, that I understand. But in
November 24, 1995 the first DOCTYPE for HTML 2.0 was published.

So if your pages are older than that, you are OK.

Here is another little bit of web history:

Long ago, there were the Great Browser Wars between Netscape and
Microsoft. During that time, each of them went in different routes
and you ended up with pages that displayed correctly on one browser
or the other.

I do remember the browser wars between IE and Netscape ...a bit of a
nightmare to get a site to work in both and look good in both at the same
time. Now it's FireFox replacing NS ... There are still some differences
in how FF displays some things as compared to IE, but they are getting
closer at least.

Then, a small amount of sanity came in.
The "4.01 strict" doctype.

Complex things render *differently* in "strict mode" and in "quicks
mode."

Rather than trying to explain it all here, I'll point you to a longer
article.

http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/bonus/render-mode.html

Short answer: More, many more, thinks work the same between the
various browsers in 'Strict' mode as opposed to 'Quirks' mode.

Since I am lazy and don't want to do more work that I need to, I use
the '4.01 strict.'

I'm not so sure I want to use the strict if/when I get time to try the
doctype with my pqlr.org pages.

What exactly does this mean: "does NOT INCLUDE presentational or deprecated
elements" ? Does that mean everything has to be put into a style sheet? I
REALLY don't want to do that. I like having the ability to put the
formatting within the html code because it's just easier to find and edit as
opposed to remembering each style or class name and what it does.
 
D

Doug Miller

Look ... I'm not acting like anything other than a new poster, here.

Actually, yes, you are. New posters, in any newsgroup, do not typically tell
the rest of the group that their collective opinions are wrong; those that do
generally encounter a chilly reception. And new posters rarely use multiple
different nyms unless they are trolls.
I'm really getting tired of people putting labels on me that are untrue.

I haven't put any labels on you. I'm just telling you why other people have.
 
J

Jenn

Neredbojias said:
A year or 2 ago, I posted a dozen or so lines of php code in response
to someone asking about how to do a particular thing in php. The code
illustrated those means along with a few lines before and after for
context. Well, the very next time I looked at the thread, some
asshole had come on and posted "Your code is broken!" His ultimate
point was that early-on in my blurb, I'd used a suboptimal method for
determining which browser had sent a file, and in that sense he was
right. However, that specific peccidillo (sp?) had nothing to do with
the pertinent information I was illustrating and only served to
destroy my credibility with the OP and piss me off greatly. Think
how much better it would have been had this guy replied with
something like, "Hey, bub, there's a more accurate way to do that
browser-sniffing shtick if you just... etc." Then he's not an enemy
but a friend; not an asshole but someone really trying to help as
opposed to massaging their own ego. THAT'S what many people here need
to learn.

YES!!! That's a wonderful way of putting it! :D
 
N

Neredbojias

ahh .. Corel ... I haven't used that particular program recently...
some years ago I had a chance to play with it tho. I ended up
getting the Photoshop instead. I think I enjoy creating graphics
about as much as websites, but when I'm in the process of playing
with the graphics it takes first place.

I know you may be busy with other things, but would you be interested
in a game called a tennis match? It's sort of a challenge to
participants to create images just for the love of it? It is done
casually .. in spare time over a period of days or even weeks
depending on how much people want to participate.

Here's a image of dorayme I created for the Australian Postal Service
after she called me a nasty name:

http://www.neredbojias.org/_dems/sch7.jpg
 
J

Jenn

Doug said:
Actually, yes, you are. New posters, in any newsgroup, do not
typically tell
the rest of the group that their collective opinions are wrong; those
that do
generally encounter a chilly reception. And new posters rarely use
multiple
different nyms unless they are trolls.

I haven't had a good chance to get past all the harassment from simply
posting a link to a website I did years ago. All I got was critiques I did
not ask for, and when I said that, I got more grief on top of it. I'm not
going to simply let it go by when people are attacking me, and I really
don't care if any group of peoples collective opinions or attitudes disagree
with my own. Disagreement is healthy and normal in groups. I will, however,
let people know to back off when they take an abusive approach with me.

Like I said before .. people can just get over me using more than one
computer to access the ngs. I shouldn't even have to explain that to
anyone, but I did so it would be clear. By now the subject shouldn't be a
problem.

I haven't put any labels on you. I'm just telling you why other
people have.

moving on...........
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

I do remember the browser wars between IE and Netscape ...a bit of a
nightmare to get a site to work in both and look good in both at the
same time. Now it's FireFox replacing NS ... There are still some
differences in how FF displays some things as compared to IE, but they
are getting closer at least.

And in strict mode, even closer. Quirks mode will, be definition of
quirks mode, never be terribly close.
What exactly does this mean: "does NOT INCLUDE presentational or
deprecated elements" ? Does that mean everything has to be put into a
style sheet?

That is exactly what that means.
I REALLY don't want to do that. I like having the ability
to put the formatting within the html code because it's just easier to
find and edit as opposed to remembering each style or class name and
what it does.

Sticky notes beside your monitor?

There are some really nice development tools for the various browsers.
"Firebug" for Firefox is excellent ... just click 'inspect element' then
click on the element you'd like to know about and it shows everything
that affects the styling of that element ... down to the CSS and line
number.

If the documents are laid out clearly, trying to keep things as simple as
possible, then one usually doesn't have too many classnames to keep track
of, and those should have logical names.

For instance, this is a horrrrid use of CSS.
p.tinyredletters {
font-size: 50%;
color: red;
}

The name says nothing about what 'tinyredletters' are supposed to mean.

Whereas, something like this:
p.extraInfo {
font-size: 50%;
color: red;
}

<p>This is everything you need to know about dirt.</p>
<p classname="extraInfo">You don't need to know this, but its a fun
fact. Dirt is all around us.</p>

The class name carries meaning, and is therefore, easier to remember.

Or, an example from a genealogy site I was helping with.


/* Typed freehand.. not tested */
h1 {color: "white";
background: "black";
}

h1 span.femaleName {
color: "magenta";
}

h1 span.maleName {
color: "blue";
}

/* This lets me say things like: */
<h1>The life and times of <span class="maleName">Jeremy J Starcher</
span></h1>

/* Now, lets suppose that later on I have a div with a light grey
background that lists children. My shades of blue and grey look rather
bad against that background. */

div.kidlist li.femaleName {
color: "red";
}

div.kidlist li.maleName {
color: "cyan";
}

/* Now I can keep the same class names and reuse them in the new context
*/

<div class="kidlist">
<p>He had the following children:</p>
<ul>
<li class="maleName">Ryo - his favorite computer</li>
<li class="femaleName">R2D2 - his shop vac</li>
</ul>
</div>

With a well chosen set of class names, I can minimize how much I need to
remember and I can look at my document and know exactly what I was
doing. Lets compare that to the HTML 3.2 version:

<h1>The life and times of <font bgcolor="black" color="blue">Jeremy J
Starcher</font></h1.


<div class="kidlist">
<p>He had the following children:</p>
<ul>
<li><font color="cyan">Ryo - his favorite computer</font></li>
<li><font color="red">R2D2 - his shop vac</font></li>
</ul>
</div>


If I decide that I don't like how something looks, with CSS I only have
to go to ONE place to change with. With Firebug, all I have to do is
click on the element and it tells me where that one place is.

With HTML 3.2 style pages, you would have to change colors *each* and
*every* place they are used. Can't use search and replace on those color
names, you might be using them elsewhere for different purposes.
 
P

Peter

On Fri, 14 May 2010 13:07:50 -0500, Jenn wrote:

If the documents are laid out clearly, trying to keep things as simple as
possible, then one usually doesn't have too many classnames to keep track
of, and those should have logical names.

For instance, this is a horrrrid use of CSS.
p.tinyredletters {
font-size: 50%;
color: red;
}

The name says nothing about what 'tinyredletters' are supposed to mean.

Whereas, something like this:
p.extraInfo {
font-size: 50%;
color: red;
}

<p>This is everything you need to know about dirt.</p>
<p classname="extraInfo">You don't need to know this, but its a fun
fact. Dirt is all around us.</p>

The class name carries meaning, and is therefore, easier to remember.

Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but I would have thought 'tinyredletters'
tells me more about the class than 'extrainfo'. And would certainly be
easier to remember for me.
 
J

Jenn

Jeremy said:
And in strict mode, even closer. Quirks mode will, be definition of
quirks mode, never be terribly close.


That is exactly what that means.


Sticky notes beside your monitor?

There are some really nice development tools for the various browsers.
"Firebug" for Firefox is excellent ... just click 'inspect element'
then click on the element you'd like to know about and it shows
everything that affects the styling of that element ... down to the
CSS and line number.

If the documents are laid out clearly, trying to keep things as
simple as possible, then one usually doesn't have too many classnames
to keep track of, and those should have logical names.

For instance, this is a horrrrid use of CSS.
p.tinyredletters {
font-size: 50%;
color: red;
}

The name says nothing about what 'tinyredletters' are supposed to
mean.

Whereas, something like this:
p.extraInfo {
font-size: 50%;
color: red;
}

<p>This is everything you need to know about dirt.</p>
<p classname="extraInfo">You don't need to know this, but its a fun
fact. Dirt is all around us.</p>

The class name carries meaning, and is therefore, easier to remember.

Or, an example from a genealogy site I was helping with.


/* Typed freehand.. not tested */
h1 {color: "white";
background: "black";
}

h1 span.femaleName {
color: "magenta";
}

h1 span.maleName {
color: "blue";
}

/* This lets me say things like: */
<h1>The life and times of <span class="maleName">Jeremy J Starcher</
span></h1>

/* Now, lets suppose that later on I have a div with a light grey
background that lists children. My shades of blue and grey look
rather bad against that background. */

div.kidlist li.femaleName {
color: "red";
}

div.kidlist li.maleName {
color: "cyan";
}

/* Now I can keep the same class names and reuse them in the new
context */

<div class="kidlist">
<p>He had the following children:</p>
<ul>
<li class="maleName">Ryo - his favorite computer</li>
<li class="femaleName">R2D2 - his shop vac</li>
</ul>
</div>

With a well chosen set of class names, I can minimize how much I need
to remember and I can look at my document and know exactly what I was
doing. Lets compare that to the HTML 3.2 version:

<h1>The life and times of <font bgcolor="black" color="blue">Jeremy J
Starcher</font></h1.


<div class="kidlist">
<p>He had the following children:</p>
<ul>
<li><font color="cyan">Ryo - his favorite computer</font></li>
<li><font color="red">R2D2 - his shop vac</font></li>
</ul>
</div>


If I decide that I don't like how something looks, with CSS I only
have to go to ONE place to change with. With Firebug, all I have to
do is click on the element and it tells me where that one place is.

With HTML 3.2 style pages, you would have to change colors *each* and
*every* place they are used. Can't use search and replace on those
color names, you might be using them elsewhere for different purposes.

ok I had to read this like 3 times because I kept getting mixed up with the
different classes you were creating.... but I was also multi-tasking at the
same time... I do understand about the classes for fonts formatting, tho...
I just get frustrated trying to remember which one that's used and where so
I end up creating new one because I can't find the previous one that was
already created. (this site has like 3 or 4 different style sheets.. monster
of a site).

thanks for the info.
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but I would have thought 'tinyredletters'
tells me more about the class than 'extrainfo'. And would certainly be
easier to remember for me.

But perhaps some day you decide to remake your site and you no longer
want the letters red.

Do you do a search and replace and change everything? Or do you just pick
a good class name to start with?

'smallPrint' would be a good class name if that is what you intend.

'warning' would be a good class name.

'tiny10pxboldfont-green' would be a bad class name.
 
J

Jenn

Jeremy said:
But perhaps some day you decide to remake your site and you no longer
want the letters red.

Do you do a search and replace and change everything? Or do you just
pick a good class name to start with?

'smallPrint' would be a good class name if that is what you intend.

'warning' would be a good class name.

'tiny10pxboldfont-green' would be a bad class name.

hmmm I guess you could put a comment next to it to tell you what color it
is...
 

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