Respect and Disappointment

[Joao Pedrosa]

Hi,

I'd have thought he should welcome Rails uptake on Windows. More proof
he has a good solution. Telling your potential customers they are
somehow lesser for using a platform he doesn't personally like is, well,
it strikes me as that he has an attitude problem.

Look up "Ed Esber" on Google. Look at what company he ran and why it
failed.

While you are at it, see this:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/31/1527257&from=rss

The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
planned. OSs don't matter. People do.

Cheers,
Joao

 

[PA]

The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
planned. OSs don't matter. People do.

"Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"

http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238

Cheers

 

[Ben Giddings]

My criteria limited me to Wintel machines. I won't use Linux -- it's
not ready for primetime. I despise Gnome and dislike KDE. There is a
striking inconsistency in the usability of Linux GUI applications,
mostly toward the "how can you use this stinking pile of..." sort of
comment. (Interestingly, with my most recent system recovery, I was
looking at doing a dual-boot to the machine I'm talking about; no
Linux out there supported my hardware properly. I would have been
looking at a 70% functionality limit.)

Which hardware is it that you're trying to support? The tablet PC? If
so, there's no surprise there, that's the type of hardware that's least
likely to be well supported under Linux, since it's new and very windowsey.

Hardware support, and drivers in general, are one of the biggest
weaknesses in Linux. Personally, I blame the short-sighted
manufacturers. They focus all their efforts into making sure that their
software works on windows, even to the point of making themed GUIs and
other useless eye candy. On the Linux side, they won't even put in
enough support effort so that other people can write the drivers for them.

Sure, Linux users are only about 1% of the market, but they get much
less than 1% of the effort.

In any case, Linux UIs are getting better all the time. KDE 3.4 is very
good, and very consistent -- but only if you stick to KDE applications.
It's still a bit annoying for me, since I use Thunderbird, Firefox and
Emacs. I can get Thunderbird and Firefox to use the same widgets as the
other KDE apps with the help of gtk-qt-engine, but some things like
printing and clipboard usage, etc. are still inconsistent.

OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
package manager, and everything for free means that there's no reason
for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't work the way
I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because I also have an
iBook which I love.

The other factor for me is cost. I have thousands of packages on my
system, all of which are free. My work PC cost nothing more than the
components, but every Windows PC at work also requires an OS ($), Office
($), an IDE ($), a virus scanner ($), and so on. My PC is so hassle and
cost-free for IT that they want to give me hardware instead.

Of course, YMMV. I'm glad that we have really good Ruby people using
every OS out there. That helps make sure that all platforms work well
with Ruby, and that none of the platforms get left behind. Having a
good, consistent Ruby environment on every platform is a great help for
Ruby coders and users of Ruby apps and libs.

Ben

 

[Stephen Kellett]

The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
planned. OSs don't matter. People do.

Go it in one.

Stephen

 

[Stephen Kellett]

"Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"

http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238

Quote from the article:
"There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "

I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
necessarily the right people for another project.

Stephen

 

[Austin Ziegler]

Which hardware is it that you're trying to support? The tablet PC?
If so, there's no surprise there, that's the type of hardware
that's least likely to be well supported under Linux, since it's
new and very windowsey.

That's part of it, and why I went with a single-boot Tablet PC with
Windows XP Tablet last time I needed to reinstall (on a larger hard
drive). But Linux support of laptops is questionable in general (I
haven't had any luck with hibernation or even suspend) and is as
questionable on some USB/USB2 devices.

I understand that most of this is the problem of manufacturers, but
it's also a problem of the licence behind Linux and the hard-line
that some kernel developers take wrt "non-free" code.

Sure, Linux users are only about 1% of the market, but they get
much less than 1% of the effort.

I'd be surprised if Linux users are even that much of the market for
new and hot hardware.

In any case, Linux UIs are getting better all the time. KDE 3.4 is
very good, and very consistent -- but only if you stick to KDE
applications. It's still a bit annoying for me, since I use
Thunderbird, Firefox and Emacs. I can get Thunderbird and Firefox
to use the same widgets as the other KDE apps with the help of
gtk-qt-engine, but some things like printing and clipboard usage,
etc. are still inconsistent.

Yeah, well, KDE is my preferred GUI when I have to use Linux. Gnome
is a beast and won't ever be anything but.

OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
package manager, and everything for free means that there's no
reason for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't
work the way I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because
I also have an iBook which I love.

*shrug* That's where we differ. I use a Norton Commander clone
(Total Commander) in place of the command-line most of the time. I
use the command-line in Windows to great effect for many things, and
I can drop into Cygwin if I need to.

The other factor for me is cost. I have thousands of packages on
my system, all of which are free. My work PC cost nothing more
than the components, but every Windows PC at work also requires an
OS ($), Office ($), an IDE ($), a virus scanner ($), and so on. My
PC is so hassle and cost-free for IT that they want to give me
hardware instead.

The OS is included with the cost of my specialty hardware, but I'll
grant you the OS cost. I haven't installed MS Office on my tablet PC
this time around (I will, eventually, since I have the licence for
it), but I have installed OpenOffice. I can use the free Windows
development tools, but most of my development on that machine is in
Ruby -- I don't need an IDE. The virus scanner that I use is free.
The only thing that I use in development that I paid for is Total
Commander -- and it's worth every penny.

I do have other software which I've bought that makes it very hard
to move from Windows, and it's really good software. But it's not my
development or word processing software.

-austin

 

[Gavri Fernandez]

Background: Was using a Linux box at home during the last 3 years
of college. Windows at work for almost 3 years now (The full length of
my working life). I spend a lot of time on Cygwin while working on
Windows because the command-line tools that come with Windows are
pretty useless. Never seen a Mac in my life (Not counting TV and pics
in magazines).

My point is this: When I read Paul Graham's article and David's
post about Macs, what I felt was not anger or disappointment but pure
freaking happiness that there is something better out there --
something I can look forward t!. The reactions in this thread are from
Mac users who go "Macs are great! You should try it!" or from
Linux/Windows users "What an elitist attitude".

What about all the Windows users who look forward to using Macs?!?
Am I the only one?

 

[Nikolai Weibull]

* Austin Ziegler (Mar 31, 2005 19:30):

*shrug* That's where we differ. I use a Norton Commander clone (Total
Commander) in place of the command-line most of the time. I use the
command-line in Windows to great effect for many things, and I can
drop into Cygwin if I need to.

Ah, a fellow total commander addict. It's the one application I have
installed on my Windows installation besides Warcraft 3,
nikolai

 

[James F. Hranicky]

"There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "

I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
necessarily the right people for another project.

I think this is closer

Project.hire()
Project.requirements()

begin
Project.design()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.redo_requirements
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
retry
end

begin
Project.code()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.redo_requirements
Project.redesign
Project.arguments_with_spouse
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
retry
rescue Project:esignActuallySucked
Project.redesign
Project.work_late
Project.start_drinking
retry
end

begin
Project.test()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.curse_customer
Project.consider_culinary_school
Project.redo_requirements
Project.redesign
Project.salvage_as_much_code_as_possible
Project.recode
Project.separation_from_family
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
Project.consider_your_own_adjustment
Project.hate_all_people
retry
rescue Project:esignActuallySucked
Project.redesign
Project.work_late
Project.start_drinking
Project.salvage_as_much_code_as_possible
Project.recode
retry
end

begin
Project.deploy()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.wait_until_v_2_0
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.fire_everyone
retry
rescue Project:esignActuallySucked
Project.too_bad
retry
rescue Project::AFewBugs
Project.maintain
rescue Project::ALotOfBugs
Project.work_late
Project.divorce
Project.know_project_members_better_than_I_ever_knew_spouse
Project.wish_I_built_bridges_instead
retry
rescue Project::TonsOfBugs
Project.scrap
end


Project.earn_money_if_havent_exited_yet
Project.therapy
Project.go_to_culinary_school

Jim

 

[Jon Raphaelson]

Quote from the article:
"There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "

I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
necessarily the right people for another project.

Stephen

Still one more step: Sell the bloddy hell out of the thing. Whether it
be open source and your goal is downloads or commercial and your goal is
$$, software isn't finished until it's in the end users hands IMHO.

Jon

 

[Rob .]

However, what I think Paul is mainly talking about are
the Apple laptops, not necessarily Macintoshes in general. When it
comes to choosing a laptop, your basically bound to whatever is
available, as there is no easy way of building one yourself. Then, as
the market is today, you have a choice. You choose to go with something
that is either covered with Intel(R) Inside(TM) and a Microsoft(R)
Windows(TM) Pre-installed stickers or a big outline of an apple.

Just to let everyone know - you do have a choice when it comes to
laptops. I bought a no-name barebones laptop (Uniwill 223ii), added
the processor myself and installed Ubuntu GNU/Linux on it. The laptop
looks cool, so does the Ubuntu desktop, and the performance is great
because I got fast hardware for my money. No Windows tax and no Apple
tax either, but great for developing Ruby code on!

For people in developing countries the cost of proprietary software
(including the embedded marketing and legal costs) is an unnecessary
and unwanted expense. Free software can provide for their needs,
promote IT industry in their local economy and improve their nation's
trade balance.

Great (Ruby) prog'ers can and will come from developing nations, but
they don't need to be beholden to Microsoft or Apple to shine, neither
do the rest of us.

 

[Mark Probert]

Hi ..

* Bill Atkins (Mar 31, 2005 11:30):


I think DHH simply phrased his blog-entry a bit slopily,

I am not so sure of that ...

What really matters, and this is the point DHH was
trying to make, are the tools that use, are contained in, and
are activated by clicking on them.

DHH said "... good programmers are wielding Macs. There's the odd exception of
Linux here and there". So, the logic he follows is that IF you are a GOOD
programmer, you will be using, or switching to a Mac, preferably a Power
Book.

Clearly a troll, though I find his comments unfortunate. I have worked with a
lot of exceptional programmers. Given that many of these projects where for
embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero. DHH clearly implies
that they aren't worth their salt. The same goes for those talented
individuals I have worked with when we where doing client work on Sun boxes,
on IBM AS/400s and so on.

How sad to have such a biased and unkind view of the world.

The question that I personally ask myself is, given these comments, why would
I want to use Rails when there are lots of alternatives?

Regards,

 

[Dick Davies]

Clearly a troll, though I find his comments unfortunate. I have worked with a
lot of exceptional programmers. Given that many of these projects where for
embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero. DHH clearly implies
that they aren't worth their salt. The same goes for those talented
individuals I have worked with when we where doing client work on Sun boxes,
on IBM AS/400s and so on.

But they don't 'wield them', do they? Not unless they're the size of king kong,
at least.

The question that I personally ask myself is, given these comments, why would
I want to use Rails when there are lots of alternatives?

The simple answer is 'because it's really good.'

The next question that springs to mind is:

'what the hell does the developers personality have to do with your choice
of tools?'

 

[Dick Davies]

I'm having that argument. I was stating my reasons for disliking Macs.

That's cool, I'm just bitching to the world at large here...

 

[Luc Heinrich]

Identify the statement that isn't true. Overpriced: Lots of others have
given examples. The other two statements are facts.

No, these are not facts. These are out-of-context pontifications. This
kind of trollish bullcrap has been "debated" for more than a decade now,
and I don't think that polluting this beatiful place with such nonsense
is a good idea. I shouldn't have replied to begin with, but I can't help
it. Sorry.

If you like your Mac that is fine with me. Apparently me not liking Macs
is not fine with you.

No, you don't understand. I really don't care, if Windows is your cup of
te a, so be it. I really, really don't care. However, I am really sick
and tired of reading this kind of nonsense (that, and that Python is an
elegant language). As I said, I should have just ignored these
nonsensical drivels, but again, I just can't help it.

Now face it. Macs are better, they come with Ruby pre-installed

 

[Mark Probert]

Hi ..

What is the alternative mantra / paradigm?

Have a look at

http://tunes.org/Review/OSes.html

A few paradigms come to mind:

Object Oriented -- all OS components are first class objects (Oberon)
Distributed Objects -- all OS components are distributed objects (Amoeba)
No Files -- there is no concept of files at all, just an app (embedded OSs)

The "everything is a file" is a *nix mantra. The original MacOS wasn't like
that at all.

Regards,

 

[Luc Heinrich]

Given that many of these projects where for
embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero.

"A lot of early coverage of the Mac Mini compares it to desktop PCs, or
even micro-ATX cases and other small PCs. What it looks like, though, is
a high-end embedded development board. Comparing it to other embedded
systems, you'll find that it's not much bigger, and it's smaller than
some. It has a broader array of connectors, a faster processor, support
for a very large amount of memory, and comes with self-hosted
development tools. In short, if you look at it as an embedded
development platform, it's a competitive one."

<http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-macmini1/?ca=dgr
-mw01macminip1>

 

[David Heinemeier Hansson]

I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it

until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that
I feel compelled to comment on.

(I hadn't spotted the cross-posting at first, so here's a reprint for
those not on that list)

There's no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many
things good and bad. For 37signals, it's definitely a disadvantage to
still be a Windows user. I wouldn't say that it's impossible, just
considerably harder, to convince us that it didn't matter too much.

The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
environment.

Just like hiring someone with a declared love for Java wouldn't make
sense for 37signals, hiring someone who thinks that Windows is the best
platform for open source use and development doesn't make that much
sense either.

If your funds are tight, I'd see it natural that you picked a free
alternative, like Linux.

Naturally, this is a fairly context-dependent recommendation. If your
dream job is working on C# using Visual Studio for some Microsoft shop,
then of course a Windows setup is a good pick. I'm going to be a bit
baffled as to why that is, but I won't berate your choice of
environment to pursue that dream.

On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies
like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails,
etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows. It's just
not a natural fit neither from a technological, cultural, or political
perspective. Actively pursuing or celebrating this unnatural fit raises
a red flag for me.

Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of
computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better
or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open
for debate.

 

[Stephen Kellett]

No, these are not facts.

So you are stating the Mac is not proprietary? Steve Jobs went out of
his way to kill the Mac clones.

So you are stating the Mac does not come with a one-button mouse?

These are out-of-context pontifications.

Out of context, by now yes. Pontifications? No. Facts.

This
kind of trollish bullcrap

The trollish bullcrap started with your derogatory response, which I
note you are continuing with the above response.

If you can prove me incorrect, I'll be better informed. You have failed
to do that but chosen to respond with more abuse. Looks to me like you
are the troll. Please demonstrate why the Mac is not proprietary and
where I can buy a Mac with a mouse having more than one button.

Stephen

 

[why the lucky stiff]

The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
environment.

What does it mean if a programmer hang glides? Does it mean that their
perspective is too lofty and airborne, hence out of touch?

If I was a programmer, I would steer clear of:
* Jetskis
* Adverbs
* Ankle bracelets
* Using curtsy as a greeting
* Kid gloves
* Mechanical pencils
* Body building magazines
* Charcoal briquets
* and, social death itself: ultrasounds of other people's children!!

I know FOR A FACT that people who use mechanical pencils cannot be
trusted. They are liars. And often they will lie about not having an
extra pack of lead in their breast pocket. I know FOR A FACT that they
have lead -- right there -- in their breast coat pocket!

_why