Respect and Disappointment

[Stephen Kellett]

Actually, a kind individual corrected me buy email. Apparently if you
click and hold you get a context menu.

Thats a fine work around, but is bad for people with RSI/WRULD as it
introduces a static load on the finger holding for the pause. If you
don't have RSI you won't know why that is an issue. If you do have RSI,
as I do, you will know that its a very real issue. A good UI will reduce
the likelihood of harm to its users.

Then buy a two-button mouse. The vast majority of OS X apps today

I would, but that wasn't what I was arguing about. You shouldn't have to
replace a fundamental component the instant you open the box. They could
ship with a two button mouse with the right one disabled. Then it would
be a configuration option. The reality is it is not about perceived ease
of use, its a branding issue. It is part of what makes Apple different
or cool, if you will. To hell with UI design, lets stand out from the
crowd. I'm not going to argue this point, it just seems a logical
marketing conclusion. By all means agree or disagree.

If it was UI design and two buttons confuse - as some people claim,
disabling one button gets you back to one button - the other button
could be inert or pop up a helpful text bubble telling the beginning
software user not to worry they can learn about this button later.

a lot of configuration to get any platform set up. Personally, I'd
rather buy a $15 two-button mouse for a Mac than learn how to get my
printer, external monitor, digital camera, three external hard drives,
and iPod to work with a Linux laptop.

If I liked the Mac UI I might agree with you. When I next see the guy
that introduced me to Python I'll ask him if he has an OS X box (he has
most things, from an Apple II, III and a Lisa upwards) so I can take
another look.

Or than learn how to make a Windows box secure.

Blimey thats easy. Download ZoneAlarm (free). Install. Done. Machine is
now invisible to the world.

I'm not sure how secure an Apple or Linux box are, but if you don't have
the same number of people battering on your door with security exploits
you are basically relying on security through obscurity.

There are lots of good reasons *not* to buy Apple products. But I don't
understand this harping about the one-button mouse. With the options

The mouse is such a fundamental part of todays UI and a single button
mouse is like a one door car. Thats fine until the passenger wants to
get out and has to climb over the driver. Apple seem to realise this as
there have been recent press mutterings that the default may change to a
2 button mouse.

Stephen

 

[Jeremy Kemper]

The mouse is such a fundamental part of todays UI and a single button
mouse is like a one door car. Thats fine until the passenger wants to
get out and has to climb over the driver. Apple seem to realise this as
there have been recent press mutterings that the default may change to a
2 button mouse.

But where's the dog going to get out? He'll dirty the seats.

I assumed the single-button trackpad would bother me more. I prefer the
Thinkpad nubs.

However:

1) I hardly use the trackpad. I navigate with the keyboard and live in vim.

2) I'm losing my reflex to right-click things to see what's "really"
going on. Most apps' just don't seem to demand it of me. This
phenomenon is a bit of a mystery, but coming from X, where each of three
buttons is trying its best to violate PoLS, I'm hardly sentimental.

The lone button has become little more than polarizing cultural emblem.

jeremy

 

[Douglas Livingstone]

Thats a fine work around, but is bad for people with RSI/WRULD as it
introduces a static load on the finger holding for the pause. If you
don't have RSI you won't know why that is an issue. If you do have RSI,
as I do, you will know that its a very real issue. A good UI will reduce
the likelihood of harm to its users.

Then you might like to try Apple's no-button mouse, you could use the
palm of your hand instead of your fingers.

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APP...hMJes2v4UZwLKJ2DnXjG/1.0.11.1.0.6.25.7.11.2.3

I would, but that wasn't what I was arguing about. You shouldn't have to
replace a fundamental component the instant you open the box. They could
ship with a two button mouse with the right one disabled. Then it would
be a configuration option.

Do you really believe this? Shipping a component where half of it is
turned off by default?

I'm not sure that the right mouse button is as fundamental as you say
it is. It isn't needed for web development. There isn't much need for
the right mouse button in word procesing and other office
applications. From watching non-developers, the toolbars are used much
more than context menus. Developers OTOH tend to use keyboard
shortcuts,sitedtepping the mouse completly. How about graphic design?
Applications like Photoshop need much more than two buttons - mouse +
ctrl or alt or even both is quite common. Scrolling is done with
spacebar + mouse.

Personally, the only time I make a lare amount of use of the right
mouse button is for mouse gestures - and even then a scroll wheel is
used orders of magnitude more often. I would love to see the
spacebar+mouse scrolling generalised to all applications, not just
graphical ones. That could replace my scroll wheel in a second!

Douglas

 

[Stephen Kellett]

Then you might like to try Apple's no-button mouse, you could use the
palm of your hand instead of your fingers.

Never heard of it. Sounds like worth looking at.

Do you really believe this? Shipping a component where half of it is
turned off by default?

No. I'd rather both were enabled. What I suggested is a compromise to
satisfy the needs of those that think a single button mouse is better.

I'm not sure that the right mouse button is as fundamental as you say
it is. It isn't needed for web development.

And web development accounts for how much of world software development?
Not much. Measured in single digits percent wise I'd guess. Probably
less than 1%. The media give web development lots of hits, but from the
feedback I see from people downloading the software we write for a
different company very few people are doing web stuff. The idea that the
rising companies are web companies (as promoted by DHH) makes me smile.
Its just not true, Google excepted. Google technologies are application
all over the place, not just the web. There are so many companies doing
really smart stuff that just don't get the general attention, especially
if you only look around inside the Ruby goldfish bowl (*). I monitor
many different languages and fora, participating in very few threads.
Where is the real development? In house, and embedded.

All that said, the bias towards web in the Ruby community seems higher
though.

There isn't much need for
the right mouse button in word procesing and other office
applications.

Funny, I find myself using the context menu in just about every app I
use.

From watching non-developers, the toolbars are used much
more than context menus. Developers OTOH tend to use keyboard
shortcuts,sitedtepping the mouse completly.

Depends, I've seen, to my amazement developers go out of their way to
use a mouse to select select which could have been done by shift, ctrl->
(select a word), Ctrl-C. Three clicks versus a whole complicated
gesture. Others are the opposite, killing all toolbars and fully
keyboard only. I'm a compromise, but like context menus. I get the menu,
but without the hassle of moving the cursor away from the source of
interest. But if you are manipulating data in grids, trees and you want
context sensitive choices about what you have selected, a context menu
is the fastest possible choice, the menu is posted with the same mouse
click as the click that selects the item.

How about graphic design?
Absolutely.

Applications like Photoshop need much more than two buttons

2 buttons is enough. If you want more thats fine - tends to be user
specific.

In 15 years of using GUIs on 7 Unix platforms, Linux, VMS and 7 versions
of Windows spanning the development of embedded systems, geographical
information systems, CAD systems, multimedia authoring platforms, web
browser development and software tool development I have yet to see a
use for a 3rd button on a mouse, although we did try really hard to find
one for the GIS application that ran on VMS and the 7 Unix platforms
(because we actually had 3 button mice shipped as standard equipment, so
we tried to make use of them). The customers typically wanted the third
button set aside for themselves to customize.

Stephen
(*) That is not an insult. Each language community has a tendency to
live in its own bubble/goldfish bowl.

 

[Pete Elmore]

Blimey thats easy. Download ZoneAlarm (free). Install. Done. Machine is
now invisible to the world.

I'm not sure how secure an Apple or Linux box are, but if you don't have
the same number of people battering on your door with security exploits
you are basically relying on security through obscurity.

That's making a couple of false assumptions, first that the security
model is even similar, and second that no one tries to crack Unix
systems. Security through obscurity would be running OpenVMS or
something.

There's a fairly extensive discussion of this at The Register.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/security/security_report_windows_vs_linux/

 

[Douglas Livingstone]

2 buttons is enough. If you want more thats fine - tends to be user
specific.

An old philosophy teacher complained that peoplekept braking things
down to linguistic philosophy... but it does seem to apply a little
here.

When I said PS needed more than 2 "buttons", I meant that it needs
more than two "ways to click on something". Interestingly in PS, most
of those ways are through keyboard modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Shift
+ Alt, Ctrl + Alt, spacebar etc), rather than using my right mouse
button. It works perfectly fine. That's probably an influence due to
it being used on Macs, but isn't something I've found to be a problem.

What I suggested is a compromise to
satisfy the needs of those that think a single button mouse is better.

If you think it is a valid comprimise, then I think you have
misunderstood the problem in the first place.

Douglas

 

[Douglas Livingstone]

And web development accounts for how much of world software development?

Sorry, didn't pick this up in my first reply. I picked on web
development first becuse it is what I am doing at the moment - not
because I thought that all development as web development.

My mouse could never match my tablet for moving things around... (and
the pen alone has 4 buttons on it!)

Where is the real development? In house, and embedded.

vs. OS web development which is out of house and tries its best to run
on anything it can. Though I have to admit, I've never right clicked
on my phone.

Douglas

 

[Navindra Umanee]

Ok, well this is waaaay off-topic, but so is this whole thread, so I'll
just do a little sushi-education.

-1, Offtopic

Sushi is actually all about the rice. The fact that a lot of sushi is made
with raw fish is actually a minor aspect. One of the tastiest (and most
difficult to make) sushi treats is "tamago", a sweet scrambled egg. Sushi
can also be made with cooked seafood: bbq eel, cooked shrimp, etc. The
one common thread is the rice. The rice is not just plain white rice,
it's a special rice cooked with sugar and rice vinegar so that it is
sticky, sweet, and a bit sour.

That's too bad. I happen to think that fish (and egg, and seafood in
general) is a sane food choice, whether raw or not, and despite the
inherent moral dilemma and ickiness of eating an organism high up in
the evolutionary chain. I guess heavy metal contamination doesn't
help though.

Sugar, as an artificially-produced refined carbohydrate, is IMHO much
less of a sane food choice. The diet of modern man is probably
artificially high in sugar leading to all sorts of problems. Rice is
similar in the sense that it is essentially filler, a staple food that
was chosen because it was cheap and easy to obtain in bulk. Rice +
sugar is essentially a formula leading to an overdose of carbohydrate.
At least in my culture, this combination seems to have been wrecking
havoc over generations.

I'd rather stuff myself with vegetables than rice or grain, and a
little fruit instead of sugar.

You should try a "california roll" sometime. It's made from cooked crab
(well normally imitation crab), cucumber, and avocado, often sprinkled
with sesame seeds. Nothing raw in there, other than the veggies.

Sounds great! I'll be sure to give it a try sometime.

Cheers,
Navin.

 

[Dick Davies]

Funny, I find myself using the context menu in just about every app I
use.

Yeah, but that's because windows is built for it and you're used to using
it - there's a menu key on the keyboard that does right click for you, which
I found really useful back when I was doing phone tech support with home
users, if only for avoiding the:

'no, right click.
yes, click with the right button.
now double click.
no, double left click'

that was a daily chore without it.

In 15 years of using GUIs on 7 Unix platforms, Linux, VMS and 7 versions
of Windows spanning the development of embedded systems, geographical
information systems, CAD systems, multimedia authoring platforms, web
browser development and software tool development I have yet to see a
use for a 3rd button on a mouse,

I find that a bit surprising - what about cut n paste for starters?

Personally I can't understand how you use a UNIX GUI (or a browser for that matter)
with only 2 buttons. X has used 3 since God was a boy, and
most X window managers have features that are easily accessed with the third
button - gimp and enlightenment in particular are no fun without at least
'emulate three buttons' option in your X setup, and firefox has a lot of
functionality tucked away there too.

The Mac on the other hand has always had the one button, so all Mac apps have
support for doing things with one button. It's easier for developers in a lot
of ways.

 

[Stephen Kellett]

If you think it is a valid comprimise, then I think you have
misunderstood the problem in the first place.

I think it sucks, but it sucks less than having 1 button.

If you think that having to press a key on the keyboard at the same time
as manipulating the mouse, when a second button on the mouse works even
better, you I think misunderstood the problem. Your solution requires
the use of two hands, second button on the mouse, all done with one
hand.

This is an impasse. No point continuing.

Stephen

 

[Stephen Kellett]

I find that a bit surprising - what about cut n paste for starters?

Which would the third button do? Cut, Copy or Paste? You'd need 5 to do
all three.

Personally I can't understand how you use a UNIX GUI (or a browser for
that matter)
with only 2 buttons. X has used 3 since God was a boy, and

Well I used X daily from 90 thru 94 and answered questions on X11 and
X11.motif newsgroups (I was Snail). "Der Mouse" and I were the most
prolific helpers of other X users, until I got RSI, anyway. Look both of
us up in the archives if Google have them that far back. I never found a
valid use for the 3rd button. Neither did any of my peers. I guess it
depends on the config files you have setup? Most of what I knew then I
have forgotten, if you don't use it/need it, it gets discarded.

most X window managers have features that are easily accessed with the third
button - gimp and enlightenment in particular are no fun without at least
'emulate three buttons' option in your X setup, and firefox has a lot of
functionality tucked away there too.

I'll take your word for it - I don't use Linux for any of those apps. I
need to setup a modern Linux box to see how things have changed.

Stephen

 

[Francis Hwang]

Sugar, as an artificially-produced refined carbohydrate, is IMHO much
less of a sane food choice. The diet of modern man is probably
artificially high in sugar leading to all sorts of problems. Rice is
similar in the sense that it is essentially filler, a staple food that
was chosen because it was cheap and easy to obtain in bulk. Rice +
sugar is essentially a formula leading to an overdose of carbohydrate.
At least in my culture, this combination seems to have been wrecking
havoc over generations.

And yet, Japan is one of the healthiest populations in the world:

http://www3.who.int/whosis/hale/hale.cfm?language=en

I've read a number of theories about how this is related to its diet,
which tends to emphasize fresh ingredients and be low in salt. Also, I
think it helps that East Asian cuisines don't traditionally include
dairy at all.

(I travelled to Taiwan last year and was astounded by the grad students
who took us to lunch and dinner, diving into 6-course meals with gusto
but who were all quite skinny themselves.)

Francis Hwang
http://fhwang.net/

 

[Francis Hwang]

Apple gained ground in court not because the bloggers couldn't be
considered journalists, but because the nature of their revelations
didn't reach the status of being for "the public good" (like whistle
blowers at tobacco companies for example). As such, the court found
there was no ground for protecting the identity of people who've
broken their NDA's. From a legal stand point, I actually somewhat
sympathize with that ruling.

And yet California state law specifically states that the journalistic
privilege of keeping sources secret is absolute, without limitation. So
it shouldn't have mattered in this case whether the revelations
involved were for the public good; it's in irrelevant test in this
case.

Furthermore, I think it's worth noting that Apple did not in fact
subpoena the journalists in this case to name their sources. It
subpoenaed one of their email providers. First of all, this is in
violation of the federal Stored Communications Act, which prevents such
service providers from giving up confidential data in response to a
subpoena in a civil case. Secondly, I think we should all be suspect
about a court case which allows a company to subpoena your emails not
because you may have information vital to national security or to some
other public good, but because somebody (not you) somewhere broke an
NDA, and you were involved.

http://www.eff.org/Censorship/Apple_v_Does/faq.php

After all, what's at stake is not, say, somebody selling launch codes,
but some Apple employees leaking product information only a few weeks
before those products were launching anyway. Apple called this a "trade
secret" leak, but unless you imagine yourself to be up against some
insane competitor who can clone your iPod Shuffle in two weeks, it
seems like a fairly spurious claim to me.

Francis Hwang
http://fhwang.net/

 

[Navindra Umanee]

And yet, Japan is one of the healthiest populations in the world:

http://www3.who.int/whosis/hale/hale.cfm?language=en

I've read a number of theories about how this is related to its diet,
which tends to emphasize fresh ingredients and be low in salt. Also, I
think it helps that East Asian cuisines don't traditionally include
dairy at all.

Here's another theory that seems to think it's not to do with the rice
at all:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/aug/17/life_expectancy.htm

And in any case, I can only speak for myself. When airport security
insists I look closer to 19 than 29, and that I certainly don't look
anything like my passport photo taken 5 years ago, maybe I'm doing
something right.

(I travelled to Taiwan last year and was astounded by the grad students
who took us to lunch and dinner, diving into 6-course meals with gusto
but who were all quite skinny themselves.)

Interesting. I do certainly eat my fill and more as well, but I am
certainly not indiscriminate about what I eat.

Not that we don't all grow old, suffer and die anyway... the
inevitability that the Buddha so wisely pointed out.

Cheers,
Navin.

 

[Patrick Spence]

Some of the most even-headed analysis of the recent Apple cases have
been by John Gruber over at Daring Fireball. I submit these as
recommended reading before continuing to discuss this rather complex
matter.

If The New York Times Jumped Off a Bridge [1]
On the Credibility of The New York Times [2]
On the Discovery Ruling in 'Apple v. Does' [3]

[1]: http://daringfireball.net/2005/03/new_york_times
[2]: http://daringfireball.net/2005/03/nyt_credibility
[3]: http://daringfireball.net/2005/03/discovery_ruling

 

[Randy Kramer]

After all, what's at stake is not, say, somebody selling launch codes,
but some Apple employees leaking product information only a few weeks
before those products were launching anyway. Apple called this a "trade
secret" leak, but unless you imagine yourself to be up against some
insane competitor who can clone your iPod Shuffle in two weeks, it
seems like a fairly spurious claim to me.

In general, I agree with what you say, but I would point out that a competitor
doesn't necessarily have to clone your product in two weeks to do damage,
they merely have to announce a (somehow, somewhat) slightly better product,
without specifying a date. (The expectation is that some people will put off
their buying decision.)

Randy Kramer

 

[Paul Battley]

Thats a fine work around, but is bad for people with RSI/WRULD as it
introduces a static load on the finger holding for the pause. If you
don't have RSI you won't know why that is an issue. If you do have RSI,
as I do, you will know that its a very real issue. A good UI will reduce
the likelihood of harm to its users.

First, I should point out that the extended press is entirely
optional: control-clicking provides an alternative than does not
impose the RSI issue you raise.

Now, maybe IHBT, and I know that the one-button mouse is something of
a shibboleth for Mac-haters but, seriously, if RSI is an issue, why on
earth would you be using a mouse? They are an ergonomic disaster
area. I use a massive (pool-ball sized) four-button Kensington
trackball with OS X. When I'm doing graphics, I switch to a graphics
tablet. Granted, neither of these are appropriate for FPS gaming, but
if you are using a computer for any length of time - and intend to do
so into the future - you owe it to your musculoskeletal system to
invest in decent input devices. Since I stopped using a mouse, my
previous hand/wrist problems have gone away.

However, I recognise that both a trackball and a tablet are
significantly harder to use for the average, untrained user than a
mouse is. As such, a mouse is still the default graphical input
device. I would, however, guess that, on the whole, Apple's vastly
simplified mouse interface imposes less strain than a complex,
multi-button mouse interface would. Most activities in OS X can be
accomplished by a simple point-and-click operation. How is that more
damaging than differentiating and co-ordinating clicks using different
fingers? Surely it is simpler. You could use the standard Mac mouse
with your foot if you wanted. Try doing the same with a
five-button-plus-scroll wheel mouse in a UI that requires
right-clicking.

I would, but that wasn't what I was arguing about. You shouldn't have to
replace a fundamental component the instant you open the box. They could
ship with a two button mouse with the right one disabled. Then it would
be a configuration option.

The "there should be a configuration option" argument is alluring, but
I am fairly confident that Apple have performed diligent human
interface research before deciding on their setup. (Conversely,
Windows' "you cannot drag an item onto a window on the taskbar, but if
you hold it there for a while, the window will pop up and you can drag
it onto that" [paraphrased] error message persuades me that Microsoft
have spent less time on human-computer interface research than their
budget would allow.) There is a multitude of settings that can be
configured in OS X but that are hidden from the surface. It's a
different attitude from many FLOSS GUI applications, with every single
possible parameter configurable on the screen. If you want a good
example of the consequences of configuritis, look at the interface of
Gnutella.

Besides, having a mouse with a disabled button, or even one that
performed differently, would surely confuse people. I know many of
these people, and my empirical observations suggest that a
non-functional or duplicate button would confuse them. Configuration
confuses them. Hell, moving and resizing windows confuses them! They
even close one application before opening another. But they are
legion. No, they are not programmers. But no commercial computer/OS
comes set up out of the box for the programming market. (Linux, to an
extent does, which is one of its great barriers to mainstream
acceptance. But Linux is just an OS kernel, and doesn't come with any
mouse at all.)

Speaking for myself and probably most of the others on this list, our
requirements are specialised. We use computers for different purposes
and for an order of magnitude more hours than the average user. Yes,
we might occasionally have to invest in the tools of the trade, be
they an extra mouse button, or a second screen for more effective
coding. There are configuration options to be set up. Frankly, I'd
be suspicious of any professional using a stock configuration, be it a
Linux distro, Windows, or OS X.

If it was UI design and two buttons confuse - as some people claim,
disabling one button gets you back to one button - the other button
could be inert or pop up a helpful text bubble telling the beginning
software user not to worry they can learn about this button later.

Have you watched the numerous people who are scared of computers? Any
message from the computer alarms them. A "helpful bubble" would, I
suspect, not be perceived in the manner intended. I am certain that
OS X is far better targeted to the average user than Windows because
it hides much of the complexity from the user.

However, this does not mean that OS X is not a suitable power-user
environment. OS X also comes, out of the box, with Ruby, Python,
Perl, etc. There is a complete development environment on the
supplied CDs. But the beauty is that Apple has managed to satisfy
these different markets without alienating either - except,
apparently, those who want a two-button mouse in the box. But don't
forget that a usable interface pays dividends for us developers too.
When I save an hour of messing around because something Just Works
under OS X, that's a significant benefit to me as well. Despite this
ease of use, though, I still get a usable command line.

Remember that Apple is in the business of selling a general-purpose
computing device to the general public. As such, their interface is
designed around a set of guidelines that aim to make the interface as
straightforward and, more importantly, as consistent as possible.
(Compare the Windows task tray: some icons need a left click, others a
right click; some respond to both, but to each differently.) The
interface of OS X really can be used with one button. Even Xcode can
be used with one button. There really is no need for a second mouse
button.

Finally, I can remember when *nix users looked down on the two-button
Windows mouse. I wonder how many free desktop users today get by
happily without ever using the middle button now that Gnome and KDE
work so well with just right and left clicks. I suspect it's more
than a few, and it's all down to the software design. If the software
doesn't need a right click, then the mouse doesn't need a right
button.

 

[why the lucky stiff]

Secondly, I think we should all be suspect about a court case which
allows a company to subpoena your emails not because you may have
information vital to national security or to some other public good,
but because somebody (not you) somewhere broke an NDA, and you were
involved.

I think we can see where this is going. I'm not a pre-eventualist (yet)
but I see it all materializing like thick cake smearing over my
eyelids. I think if Ashley Raymond were here, he would say something
utterly incomprehensible, just to avoid joining culture.

It all reminds me of the ancient confounding of the tongues, but caused
by a society which is wider than it is tall. Maybe we will live in
cities which are six or seven level deep. Each level with its own
nomenclatures and systems. I honest grip tightly the precept that we
will safely passage between realms. However, in my most morose hours, I
can't resist accepting the inevitability of evolving retinas which will
shield us from each other, so that perhaps we will see a ghost or only a
cape or maybe only just a few loose stitches hovering there stubbornly.

_why

 

[Dick Davies]

On Mar 31, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Dick Davies wrote:

Talking more theoretically: It does matter. Most software is a process,
not a product.

If you're doing anything interesting, a new software lib is not going
to do 100% of what you need. Even a heavily patched, highly used
framework like Rails. So you'll need to submit patches or bug reports
and generally communicate with the folks that can make the changes.
(You can always patch yourself, of course, but for some gnarly bugs
that can slow a newbie down quite a bit.) You'd like to know that those
people are considerate and responsive and have a little bit of
humility.

I've submitted a few patches to Rails, and I did'nt have to create them in
SubEthaEdit.

DHH has the right to be as opinionated as anyone else in my book. I've never
met an unpredjudiced individual, at least he's honest about his preferences.

I'm more bothered about his love of MySQL personally, but my patches to the
postgresql side of things are handled promptly - I don't even have to wear
the special elephant armband on weekends

 

[dzsekijo]

Strange why you value so much an application-specific VFS which can't
be used from elsewhere.

A similar thing I am addict to is shfs (http://sfhs.sf.net), by which I
can mount any computer's fs remotely to which I have ssh access and
runs shell or perl (it's for Linux).

There are other means for similar purposes as well (fuse,
gnome-vfs-mount, lufs).

The point is that the remote fs will be integrated to your filesystem,
transparently to all of your apps. Now *that's* cool. I can imagine you
can do it under Windows as well somehow, but a VFS tied to a single
app... just better than nothing, IMHO.

That said, this and linux's software suspend (which does work for me)
is what keeps me switching to BSD.

Csaba