[OT] Indian C programmers and "u"

[Anupam]

Someone started an idiotic usenet thread. If you feel angry at what
someone says hit back, do not play the victim. No one is ganging up
against Indians here.

If you do not understand the basics of what is going on please have the
courtesy to ask. As for playing the victim... no FYI I was not doing so.
Both the sentences that you have written here are based on mere premise.
Try and prove it on as having a logical basis.
If you have anywhere near followed the thread, you would understand that
I was not speaking for any particular community. I was against the general
feeling about this thread.. nothing more and nothing less. I know that no
one is ganging up against Indians here. Where did you presume to get this
most baseless hypothesis from? I do not come here to be "hit" or to "hit
back". I was discussing an issue in its aspects in a logical manner. You
may have feelings of "hitting back" when you do a posting. That is not the
way I go about it. In fact your attitude is exactly what I was talking about.
I wasn't blaming any particular race or thinking that we were the victims.
I don't know how else I can make myself clear...hopefully your sight is OK
and you can see this *I was talking about the anger which _many_ people
from _many_ communities* had shown in the thread.
If you want to do political posturing there are other and much more
suitable platforms for you.

 

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Your sig marker is faulty. It should be precisely "-- ".

Thanks for correcting me. I didn't aware of the mark actually.

At last a sane explanation of the tendency, from someone who
presumably knows. Now the problem is to promulgate the realities
among the Indian users of newsgroups.

This is not the only annoying Indian tendency - another is the
proclivity to top-post and fail to snip.

Yes. It's really a problem. As once I said, Internet is quite
new in India. Many people are not aware of those etiquettes. Also,
people don't aware how to use Google. And again, there is some
misunderstandings about C programming and so people often post DOS
programming questions. Hope, this will resolve soon when the computers
and Internet become cheap.

 

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Is that so? Well how should a person react when he gets insulted on
his nationality? I would love to hear your invaluable suggestions.

At the end of it all, I would like to say that I reacted strongly
only because it pertained to a racial aspect.

Don't be too sensitive in NG. You're supposed to learn and
correct yourself; and always take the matters too lightly in NG.
Obviously, you have to learn a lot of patience from Dan Pop, whom is
always the victim of fun and flames.

I'm reading clc for about past 4years. I have never seen any
groupism on behalf of national/ethnic reasons. But, I would say there
is some kind of groupism in terms of regulars Vs. non-regulars, which
is obvious in any NG. For example, if you insult RJH, immediately Ben
or Joona will raise their voice irrespective of their nationality to
vouch him---all because he is regular. As for clc is concerned the
chaos is because of the people who go for standards (law book) Vs. who
don't. As for the Indians are concerned, they're not aware of Google,
FAQ, netiquette,... And quite often the regulars misunderstand, Indian
interview questions Vs. homework problems.

Had you caught me up on
an aspect of C I would have gladly accepted my mistake and gone on.

That's good spirit. But, you must also be gladly accept
grammatical and etiquette mistakes.

 

[Anupam]

<snipped most of previous post>
<OT>
Also please have the decency to mention off-topic when it is so. And

The whole thread is labeled as off-topic, in the subject line, so why the
hell would anyone expect topical contents inside?

PS. At least the OP mentioned OT in his header(headers are not

And the [OT] tag is present in the subject line of *all* the posts in
the thread. So, what's your point, if any?

visible in all mail clients ,still...).

If you don't see the subject line, how do you decide what to read and
what to ignore?

The first line or two is picked up from the posting and displayed in
a tree-list.
So the OT should also be present below inside the main text,
preferably in the first line or two.

 

[CBFalconer]

People who have english as their second language often have a better
grasp of grammar and semantics of words than native speakers (if
they have been learning the language for some time). The reason is
that native speakers generally know very little outside colloquial
meanings of words unless these words happens to have formal meanings
in some area the person has some expertise in.

I partly agree, in that (in my experience) non-native speakers often
know more about supposed rules of English grammar. This is, I think,
largely due to the inadequacy of the British[0] education system.

IMHO the reason is that the native speaker never needed the rules
- the phrase just 'sounded right' or 'sounded wrong'. This
effect, of course, depends heavily on the parents and family in
general. The same effect causes some non-natives to emit phrases
such as: "To the store I will go", which is correct, but sounds
ridiculous to a native speaker.

.... snip ...

[0] The language spoken by Americans and others bears only a
superficial resemblance to English, so they're excluded
from these comments.

On the contrary, some of the foulest travesties of the English
language have emanated from the British Isles.

 

[Richard Heathfield]

You first brother.Stop posting any nationalistic comments.

I'm not posting any nationalistic comments, and have not done so *at all* in
this thread. I may therefore be considered "neutral". But I /do/ have an
interest in what is discussed here, especially as my bandwidth is
ludicrously limited (28800 bits per second at the moment).

Now please do me the courtesy of keeping politics out of this newsgroup, by
ceasing to discuss them yourself. It is not necessary to wait for some
other person to stop before stopping yourself. And this applies just as
much to him or her as they do to you. If you wait for him to stop and he
waits for you to stop, there'll be no end to it. If you both stop first, it
stops immediately.

 

[Richard Heathfield]

IMHO the reason is that the native speaker never needed the rules
- the phrase just 'sounded right' or 'sounded wrong'. This
effect, of course, depends heavily on the parents and family in
general. The same effect causes some non-natives to emit phrases
such as: "To the store I will go", which is correct, but sounds
ridiculous to a native speaker.

And yet one can imagine contexts in which it would not sound ridiculous. I
don't plan to invent one right here, though.

... snip ...

[0] The language spoken by Americans and others bears only a
superficial resemblance to English, so they're excluded
from these comments.

On the contrary, some of the foulest travesties of the English
language have emanated from the British Isles.

Naturally. That's because we import the good bits of other languages
(without ever paying for them, of course), and we export the bad bits of
our own that we don't want any more. That is why English will always be the
finest language in the world.

 

[CBFalconer]

Yes. It's really a problem. As once I said, Internet is quite
new in India. Many people are not aware of those etiquettes. Also,
people don't aware how to use Google. And again, there is some
misunderstandings about C programming and so people often post DOS
programming questions. Hope, this will resolve soon when the
computers and Internet become cheap.

What has Google got to do with it? They are only one of many ways
to access usenet, and a relative newcomer. Their principle claim
to fame in this regard is their archives.

 

[J. J. Farrell]

Which is to say, "I have a question about..."

A: "Fred is the most handsome man in the world."
B: "I have my doubts about that."
C: "What is your question?"

 

[Nils Petter Vaskinn]

If it were, they would be making it in plenty of other words, too.
My mother tongue also uses a phonetical writing, yet I'm never tempted
to write English words in a phonetical manner.

But wouldn't a one-syllable-word be easier to slip up on? I usually make
the most mistakes on short simple words where I don't consciously think
about how to spell them. If for example I wrote "ov" instead of "of" I
wouldn't notice, (and I probably wouldn't notice if someone else did
either).

 

[Nils Petter Vaskinn]

*ENGAGE* your brain Dan. There is no requirement that the two be
"*perfectly*" equivalent, merely interchangeable sufficiently that the
intent of the writer be understood by by the reader.

And that they are.

I disagree.

If you say you have a question about malloc, I would interpret that as
there is something you would like to know about malloc.

If you say you have a doubt about malloc, I would also interpret it as you
question the suitability/quality/something of malloc (or a particular
implementation of malloc) for some purpose, unless the context made it
glaringly obvious that the intended meaning was the other one.

 

[J. J. Farrell]

*ENGAGE* your brain Dan. There is no requirement that the two
be "*perfectly*" equivalent, merely interchangeable sufficiently
that the intent of the writer be understood by by the reader.

And that they are.

The words have closely related meanings. In most current forms of
English they are not interchangeable as nouns. In current Indian
English, they are very close to interchangeable.

The first time I hit this was a borderline case. A colleague said
"I have a doubt about these two lines", by which he meant "I'm
fairly sure this is right, do you agree?". This usage was very
slightly odd to my ears, but the meaning was immediately obvious.
The next time I came across it was when someone came up to me and
said "I have a doubt", giving no other context. I assumed I'd
misheard, and asked him to repeat. When I was sure of what he'd
said, my first (internal) response was "why tell me, I'm not a
philosopher or a spiritual advisor". Not sure how to respond, I
said "go ahead" and he then asked a question - at which point I
finally understood his opening remark. This usage was totally new
to me, despite having some knowledge of several different forms
of English.

We're not talking about requirements for equivalency, but about
usage and understanding. In most current forms of English, "doubt"
cannot be used for "question" in the same way that it can in
Indian English. Most speakers of other Englishes are able to work
out what is meant, but it sounds odd to them.

 

[seemanta dutta]

yeah, I agree. It is a typical example of western double
standards.
remember how they developed the first atomic bomb and used it against
japan??
and now they have the guts to preach to other countries the evil of
nuclear weapons!!

whether u like it or not, the zero was invented by an *indian*.
posting any damn messages won't negate that fact and the fact all the
computing technology relies on that very invention.
first try to practice what you preach!

besides i think the average person no matter what background he is
from who posts in this group has the minimum intelligence level
required to 'decipher' the meaning of 'u', of course with the
exception of u and ur friends who fail to understand that getting
one's view across is more important than getting involved in the usage
of english language, at least in this newsgroup.

regards,
Seemanta Dutta, A proud indian....

 

[Floyd Davidson]

I disagree.

If you say you have a question about malloc, I would interpret that as
there is something you would like to know about malloc.

If you say you have a doubt about malloc, I would also interpret it as you
question the suitability/quality/something of malloc (or a particular
implementation of malloc) for some purpose, unless the context made it
glaringly obvious that the intended meaning was the other one.

So you say you disagree and present an argument which supports
precisely what I said... I have a doubt about whether you read
what you wrote with enough care to realize the words you used.
If you question the suitability/quality/something of malloc, why
would you post that statement unless you wanted someone to
either refute or corroborate it for you... meaning "you would
like to know about malloc". Whatever your doubt/question about
malloc happens to be, the discussion could start with a
statement using either doubt or question. It would not change
the likely responses.

What blows me away is that I've posted several sentences now that
can use doubt or question interchangeably without the slightest shift
in what a reader would interpret the sentences to mean, and yet
people still insist that they can't mean the same thing.

question n. 1) ... 2) ... 3) doubt; uncertainty; ...

(Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, College
Edition)

 

[Sudheer Reddy Vakati]

I've been wondering about this for too long. Why is it that *every
single* Indian C programmer I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u"
for "you"? Many manage otherwise perfectly grammatical English but
that one mistake sticks out. Do they have a law in India forcing
schools to teach mangled English or something?

I guess most of the people who use 'u' for 'you' pick it from chat
rooms. Also many of the people from cities like bangalore and delhi like
using slang, probably because that makes them feel they are more
cosmopolitan in nature or that using slang makes them feel they are
trendy . Anyway use of this slang is limited to few cities like
bangalore, delhi etc. Barring people from these cities, rest of india
doesnt use slang. Personally after coming to Bangalore from a small
town, i had trouble understanding the slang here. I had trouble reading
what people write too .
But its always a good habit to spell words properly in a newsgroup, what
may be easily understood by a person may not be understood by another
unless spelt properly.


Sudheer Reddy

 

[Floyd Davidson]

A: "Fred is the most handsome man in the world."
B: "I have my doubts about that."
C: "What is your question?"

D: "How anyone can call Fred handsome at all."

 

[Sudheer Reddy Vakati]

The term that "Every Single INDIAN Programmer" uses "u" in place of
"you" is a gross misappropriation of facts and thats the reason for
this flame.So what do you expect us indians to infer other than that
it was a sarcastic remark to derogate all indians(even those who use
correct english).And don't assume that this will in anyway deter the
confidence of indian programmers as the driving forces of today's
technologies.It wont be long enough when you will be seeing the logo
"India inside" (instead of the "Intel inside"),as there will be
indian programmers involved or parts manufactured in india in every
single device.

Its the westeners who have given us "u" , its not indians who have
invented it.Indians have always given things which the world should be
proud of.We have given you 0 which is the basis of all digital
communications today(0's and 1's).It would be wise to correct the root
cause of the problem than pinpointing indians.

And this remark of the gentleman,could elicit a flame from an indian
girl(anuradha in this case) who are admired for their patience, just
goes on to show the deep rooted misconception of the originator of the
post about the usage of the english language of "Every Indian
Programmer".He surely deserves to give a apology unless he is
undeducated and illiterate .

Its always good to admit your wrongs than blaming someone else when
the problem lies somewhere else.

And i request people to take it as a healthy,informal and
light-hearted discussion rather than feeling saddened and accused
which may reflect in normal posts of this group, because most of the
people here are regular posters.



To light it up a bit, the three reasons India is now at the forefront
of technlogical advances(mostly the software industry) :

1.Aryabhatta invented 0, the basis of all digital communications is
0's and 1's.

2.Columbus discovered America.A sizeable part of the foreign exchange
indian earns comes from America.

3.And the British while leaving india,left English behind.


regards

I don't see anything wrong with what joona posted about the way 'many'
indians who post to the newsgroup write 'you' as. Joona only said many
people who post here write 'you' as 'u'. Nothing degrading about
indians was said there. I dont understand what made you respond with
your patriotic stuff. I dont see joona's post offending, it's your post
which i feel is odd.


Sudheer Reddy

 

[Christian Bau]

yeah, I agree. It is a typical example of western double
standards.
remember how they developed the first atomic bomb and used it against
japan??
and now they have the guts to preach to other countries the evil of
nuclear weapons!!

I am a "westerner", and I had the pleasure to see a government crumble
because people living in my country didn't want nuclear weapons
installed. So your opinion seems quite prejudiced to me.

whether u like it or not, the zero was invented by an *indian*.
posting any damn messages won't negate that fact and the fact all the
computing technology relies on that very invention.

It doesn't. Computers would work just fine with '+' and '-' only.

first try to practice what you preach!
besides i think the average person no matter what background he is
from who posts in this group has the minimum intelligence level
required to 'decipher' the meaning of 'u', of course with the
exception of u and ur friends who fail to understand that getting
one's view across is more important than getting involved in the usage
of english language, at least in this newsgroup.

Using "u" instead of "you" makes you look as puerile idiot in the views
of 90% of the readers here, because 90% of Americans and British who use
"u" _are_ idiots. It is used by people who try to be "kewl" and fail
miserably. And since nobody cares where you come from, the conclusion is
that Indian programmers using "u" are just as stupid as Americans using
"u". I recommend to avoid it if you want to be taken seriously here.

regards,
Seemanta Dutta, A proud indian....

I thought the shift key on your computer was broken, but apparently it
isn't... Using lowercase letters at the beginning of a sentence makes
you look stupid as well.

 

[J. J. Farrell]

The term that "Every Single INDIAN Programmer" uses "u" in place of
"you" is a gross misappropriation of facts and thats the reason for
this flame.So what do you expect us indians to infer other than that
it was a sarcastic remark to derogate all indians(even those who use
correct english).

If he had said what you claim, that would have been a reasonable
interence. What he actually said was "*every single* Indian C
programmer I have seen on this newsgroup ..." which is an entirely
different thing. It may or may not be true, but it cannot reasonably
be interpreted as a slur against all Indians. Those Indians posting
here without using the irritating "u" abbreviation have every right
to be offended, but that's a far smaller number than "all Indians".

And don't assume that this will in anyway deter the
confidence of indian programmers as the driving forces of today's
technologies.

Why should anyone think it would? You're turning an intemperate
and poorly presented complaint about newsgroup etiquette into an
attack on a nation. It wasn't one.

It wont be long enough when you will be seeing the logo
"India inside"

Someone's beaten you to that idea - I saw it a few years ago! (A
very nicely done logo with the Indian outline in the background
and the flag bannered across. Can't remember where I saw it.)

It would be wise to correct the root
cause of the problem than pinpointing indians.

Indeed - that's why he said "Why ...?". It's unfortunate that he
highlighted Indians in that way. It is not only Indians who do it,
and not all Indians - but most usages of "u" that I've seen
recently in this and other technical forums have been by people
who appear to be Indians. It would be interesting to know why.
It suggests some cultural phenomenon - perhaps a large number
of young people used to phone messaging have recently started
using technical forums.

3.And the British while leaving india,left English behind.

Where it is being well looked after, and developing in various
interesting ways.

 

[Nils Petter Vaskinn]

Yes. It's really a problem. As once I said, Internet is quite
new in India. Many people are not aware of those etiquettes. Also,
people don't aware how to use Google.

If browsing cost is an issue I wouldn't recommend using google to read
newsgroups. There are cheaper ways that doesn't require you to be online
while doing the actual reading and writing of messages.

An offline newsreader will connect to a server and download headers for
all articles. You can then disconnect and mark the articles you would like
to read taking as much time as you like. You then connect again and
download the selected articles disconnect and read them while offline. You
then make your replies, connect again and send them.

Unless the cost of setting up a connection is huge compared to the
per-minute price this will probably be cheaper, you get much more
information for your money, and you can read without having to rush
because you pay by the minute.

If you were to mention what platform you're using you'll probably get
suggestions about peoples favorite offline newsreaders. And pointers to
download locations and instructions on how to set them up.