OT: Will non net-neutrality kill the internet?

[Nick Keighley]

this variability seems to be fairly minor, from what I have seen, and
typically there is much more variation within a society than between them....

Various homosexual acts carry the death penalty in some countries.
In Saudi Arabia you can be beaten with a cane for consuming alchol.

This is minor variability?

under sharia yes, but not necessarily in other places or for other
religions.

making my point! It's *variable*. Good grief...

differences in doctrinal interpretations are, typically, rarely a big deal.

Munster rebellion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münster_Rebellion

Then there's Islam...

To anticipate, I'm talking about the internal doctrinal differences of
Islam. These have led to inter-communual violence and even war. You're
going to say that's Islam's problem. Sorry from where I stand
Christianity looks pretty similar to Islam. I just think the Christian
countries are a little bit more grown up that's all.

all of these may exist.
the legal and spiritual sense are not entirely different, it is just a
question of whos laws and who is the judge...

I don't believe in the existence of your spiritual judge

it is only a minority who don't use alcohol in communion, or who don't
practice communion...

interesting. Do you have figures? I was thinking Methodist and Quaker
for starters... What religion exists in my family is of the non-
conformist variety. They have Views on alcohol...

I don't say they are absolute, per-se, but they may be universal.

obviously I disagree

an inability to measure does not mean that they don't exist,

I didn't say morality was non-existent. I said it wasn't (and couldn't
be) a science. If you can't measure it it ain't science.

nor that they
exist in some objective manner (similar to the other sciences, or at least
along the lines of sociology or economics, ...).

oh sorry, I thought you said *science*. Good grief next you'll be
telling me palm reading is a science...

I don't claim to have exact knowledge as to what the morals are (in terms of
how exactly the system works, what things exactly are moral or immoral, ....
but a rough estimate is possible via things like observation and
classification).

now, as for the guess:
assuming that all 11 in this case were roughly equal weight (equal social
status, with similar level of societal contribution, ...), then killing 1
person to save 10 is a reasonable outcome.

I made the mistake of thinking you were serious...

however, there are edge cases, for example, killing 1 CEO to save 10
vagrants would not be a good tradeoff.

opinions vary. 10 vagrants are a lot less harmful than one bank CEO.

well, in this sense, yes.
however, the person can also be abstracted away.

no. No they can't. Thinking like this leads to death camps. Once
you've de-humanised them the killing becomes easier.

you have any clearly better ideas?...

"Thou shalt not kill"

actually seems like a step up for you

this doesn't seem all that drastic.
the net result is likely to be the same regardless of the exact means of
evaluating the answer...




hmm...

well, I don't exactly claim to be a supporter of humanist ideals or
similar...

I'm not even sure what humanist ideals are. Humanism looks like
religion for people who claim they aren't religious. The worst of both
worlds.

The Handmaidens Tale portrays a near future where the christian
fundamentalists have taken over America.



--

"Morality is a spandrel of the game theoretic implications of the
society of symbol users.
We impute moral worth to the non-social world on that basis."
(John Wilkins talk.origins)

 

[Chris H]

In message <[email protected]

To anticipate, I'm talking about the internal doctrinal differences of
Islam. These have led to inter-communual violence and even war. You're
going to say that's Islam's problem. Sorry from where I stand
Christianity looks pretty similar to Islam. I just think the Christian
countries are a little bit more grown up that's all.

You mean like the USA's Overtly Christian "Crusade" (to use the then US
Presidents word) against Afghanistan and Iraq

The corollary of Gowins Law (mentioning Hitler) is Westborogh Bapists
who are off limits for this discussion. They are certifiable nutters and
disowned by everyone outside their own group.

interesting. Do you have figures? I was thinking Methodist and Quaker
for starters... What religion exists in my family is of the non-
conformist variety. They have Views on alcohol...

Strange as the Bible frequently talks about drinking wine. Never really
understood the Christian churches stance against alcohol.

obviously I disagree

SO do I.... there are NO moral absolutes or Universal morals.

"Thou shalt not kill"
actually seems like a step up for you

It is also not a moral absolute.

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

societes. In Iran adulterers are stoned to death. Leagally. Men and

women.

I think that there must be some gender bias in this.

If a married man uses the services of the prostitute - is he stoned to death?

Can you cite me the Shariat, Quran or other Muslim source about _men_ subject to beating to death due to having sex with a _whore_ (or with a non-Muslim woman)? maybe it's only (as I suspect strongly) about having sex _with the wife of some another man_?

And now note we are speaking about _Muslim religion_ punishment for _adultery_. As about "adates", which prescribe killing the young un-married non-virgin (Islam is silent on this) - then I'm nearly 100% sure that _only females_ are killed.

So-called honour killings have occurred in the UK.

Hindu as well. Probably a generation ago it wasn't unknown in southern
europe.

Generation? 20 years? I disbelieve. Century - yes, more realistic IMHO.

dating a christian. A hindu dating the wrong cast.

And this is all because the glorious Western Modern civilization lacks some very important points, related to some base psychology of human beings. That's why the ancient, centuries-old, sometimes just plain neolithic social patterns leak to the West.

What the West can provide to, say, Hindu family? Yet another Auchan/Tesco/Walmart mall, even closer to home? a loan to buy Ford Focus?

This is all mundane and non-transcendental.

And what _non-mundane_ things can the West provide to Hindu family? next to nothing? and their classic way of life at least provides them with honor.

MORALITY IS NOT A UNIVERSALLY AGREED CODE

Oh yes. 100% agree.

it is also law in many muslim countries (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and
Iran all use the cane)

BTW - Iran is Shiite country, and most other Muslims (all Arabs etc) are Sunnites.

This is a major difference for them.

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

You mean like the USA's Overtly Christian "Crusade" (to use the then US

Presidents word) against Afghanistan and Iraq

There is an opinion that the Western elites _just have lost the ability of controlling masses via transcendental means_.

The masses on the West are only controlled by "cakes" (good mortgage credit conditions, for instance) and "whips" (the terroristic threat hyped by the media, which causes the raise of the power of Mr. Chertoff's agency. BTW, "Chertoff" is a Russian name, means "demonish").

It was not always so in the West. The real Crusades were largely controlled by transcendental means.

So, when President Bush-Jr tried to declare a Crusade after 9/11, this cause serious resistance of American elite, and the idea was actually quickly buried before its actual arousal.

understood the Christian churches stance against alcohol.

Orthodox churches have no such stance, so is RC I think.

 

[Chris H]

I think that there must be some gender bias in this.
If a married man uses the services of the prostitute - is he stoned to death?

In such countries where stoning is permitted Prostitution is illegal
anyway.

So-called honour killings have occurred in the UK.

Also in most other countries of the world by most religions under
various names.

Salem Witch trials for example killed people for all sorts of spurious
reasons and "Shotgun weddings" are quite common etc.

It is not uncommon for a girls brother(s) to beat up her boyfriend for
getting familiar in any country of the world and under any religion.

 

[Chris H]

There is an opinion that the Western elites _just have lost the ability
of controlling masses via transcendental means_.

The masses on the West are only controlled by "cakes" (good mortgage
credit conditions, for instance) and "whips" (the terroristic threat
hyped by the media, which causes the raise of the power of Mr.
Chertoff's agency. BTW, "Chertoff" is a Russian name, means
"demonish").

It was not always so in the West. The real Crusades were largely
controlled by transcendental means.

If you mean the European crusades into Spain, Turkey and Palestine? That
was for political, commercial and religious reasons. Just like the US
Crusade into Iraq.

So, when President Bush-Jr tried to declare a Crusade after 9/11, this
cause serious resistance of American elite, and the idea was actually
quickly buried before its actual arousal.

It was only buried in the US media by Bushes aids. The rest of the world
got very pissed off about it if it reverberated for a LONG time.

In fact comment from Bush became a major rallying point for the Middle
East and Afghanistan that has only been fuelled by the actions and
comments from many individuals in the US military.

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

It is not uncommon for a girls brother(s) to beat up her boyfriend for

getting familiar in any country of the world and under any religion.

Yes.

And this leads to the following ideas: what must be done to eliminate the honor killings? maybe elimination of families, so that any legally adult man/woman leaves his/her parents/brothers forever and builds up his/her life by his/herself?

This is called "social atomization", and the process goes on in the Western civilization, and also had major advance in the USSR.

 

[Chris H]

Yes.

And this leads to the following ideas: what must be done to eliminate
the honor killings?
Yes.

maybe elimination of families,

Obviously not. The 1960's changed the situation in Europe and much of
the USA. Though areas of strong religious control did not advance as
much. I.E. the US Bible belt.

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

And this leads to the following ideas: what must be done to eliminate

Obviously not.

Actually, I see a very strong link of a) switch to atomized lifestyle b) decrease in honor killings, or at least beatings and shotgun marriages.

When the girl lives together with her father and elder brother, then they consider her as a minor, and sub-consciously claim the right of being their "life guides" and protectors.

More so, her father remembers her being actually a child, when he really was a "life guide" just as a parent.

But, in atomized society, when the girl leaves the house of her parents at, say, 18, he is "by itself" and "really adult", and I think that half a year of this state is enough for the father to fully agree that she is 100% free in her sexual life. The subcoscious link between the father and daughter is lost in this case, and the lack of this link changes her father's behaviour.

And now note the obvious social-economic conditions (i.e. industrialization and urbanization) which enforced the atomized lifestyle in the West and in the USSR.

This IMHO by far predates 1960ies in the West. If the rural girl from, say, Iowa (or Omsk region of the USSR) left her parents to work at some factory in Chicago (or Novosibirsk) - this social pattern surely predates 1960ies a lot.

In Russia yes, 1960-70ies are major peak of urbanization, unparalleled in the West where urbanization was a) earlier b) milder. But in the West I think it's more like Depression or FDR's times.

The 1960's changed the situation in Europe and much of the USA.

For me, the Western 1960ies with their Woodstocks and Janice Joplins, as also major draft dodging in the US, were the start of the contiguous degrade of the Western civilization.

 

[Chris H]

Actually, I see a very strong link of

Then I feel sorry for you

For me, the Western 1960ies with their Woodstocks and Janice Joplins,
as also major draft dodging in the US, were the start of the contiguous
degrade of the Western civilization.

We disagree.

 

[Stephen Sprunk]

Also in most other countries of the world by most religions under
various names.

Most religions/cultures have gotten over it and moved on.

Salem Witch trials for example killed people for all sorts of spurious
reasons

Those people were killed for being witches, not for having sex, and the
same would not be tolerated today in any Western country.

and "Shotgun weddings" are quite common etc.

They were in the past, but how often do they actually happen today?

More importantly, they typically only occurred when the girl got
pregnant, and it was the _man_, not the _woman_, who was under threat.
In a sense, this was an early form of child support.

S

 

[Nick Keighley]

I think that there must be some gender bias in this.

it wouldn't surprise me. But, again, you avoid the point...

If a married man uses the services of the prostitute - is he stoned to death?

Can you cite me the Shariat, Quran or other Muslim source about _men_ subject to beating to death due to having sex with a _whore_ (or with a non-Muslim woman)? maybe it's only (as I suspect strongly) about having sex _with the wife of some another man_?

And now note we are speaking about _Muslim religion_ punishment for _adultery_.

you are. I'm talking about the actual legal framework that operates in
some countries.

<snip>

[honour killings in muslim communicty]

Generation? 20 years? I disbelieve. Century - yes, more realistic IMHO.

ok. 20 years too little. 100 years too long. I cite The Godfather.
Particularly its portrayal of 1930s Sicily.

And this is all because the glorious Western Modern civilization lacks
some very important points,

a male dominated society where women are perceived as property?

related to some base psychology of human
beings. That's why the ancient, centuries-old, sometimes just plain
neolithic social patterns leak to the West.

What the West can provide to, say, Hindu family? Yet another
Auchan/Tesco/Walmart mall, even closer to home? a loan to buy Ford Focus?

This is all mundane and non-transcendental.

And what _non-mundane_ things can the West provide to Hindu family?
next to nothing? and their classic way of life at least provides them with honor.

part of the problem is that the second or third generation goes
native. They want to wear jeans etc. This can be tolerated in males
but is much more of a basket of dynamite for the girls. Organisations
exist to help girls escape from such families. Things can go badly
wrong if they get found.

I believe the Metropolitan Police (ie. the police for London) have an
"Honour" killings unit (I'll bet it has a more PC name though)

Oh yes. 100% agree.


BTW - Iran is Shiite country, and most other Muslims (all Arabs etc) are Sunnites.

This is a major difference for them.

yes I know. But in this case it doesn't make a great deal of
difference does it?

 

[Chris H]

Most religions/cultures have gotten over it and moved on.

Not the religious ones or the US Bible Belt for example and some other
religious hotspots

Those people were killed for being witches, not for having sex, and the
same would not be tolerated today in any Western country.

It still happens. Both in the UK and US but usually among African
immigrants.

They were in the past, but how often do they actually happen today?

Depends where in the world you are... Still happens in Europe and US

More importantly, they typically only occurred when the girl got
pregnant, and it was the _man_, not the _woman_, who was under threat.
In a sense, this was an early form of child support.

True.

 

[Nick Keighley]

In message <[email protected]


You mean like the USA's Overtly Christian "Crusade" (to use the then US
Presidents word) against Afghanistan and Iraq

yes... Not the cleverest of ideas that one. I was more thinking of
things like the the various religious wars that tore Europe apart.
Hopefully christian sects won't be fighting each other in the west in
the near future.

The corollary of Gowins Law (mentioning Hitler) is Westborogh Bapists
who are off limits for this discussion. They are certifiable nutters and
disowned by everyone outside their own group.

are they the ones who turn up a soldiers funerals and claim its some
sort of punishment for homosexulaity? Or is that another buch of
crazies?

Again I didn't say there were no christian crazies but that they were
on a lower level and smaller scale. Northern Ireland anyone?

Strange as the Bible frequently talks about drinking wine. Never really
understood the Christian churches stance against alcohol.

because its fun. Protestants don't like fun.

<snip>

 

[Stephen Sprunk]

you seem strangly unable to answer the question. Is it immoral to have
more than one wife at the same time?

I don't provide a solid answer because I believe morality depends on the
person you're asking, i.e. there is no objective morality.

Personally, I don't think it's immoral as long as all of the prospective
spouses are aware of and agree to it beforehand.

I don't see how you can deduce that. I was simply not making the
fornication/adultary distinction.

In many cultures, fornication is considered adultery against one's
_future_ spouse.

The point you are rather activly trying to avoid is that the law
covers extra-marital sex in some societes. In Iran adulterers are
stoned to death. Leagally. Men and women.

I wasn't trying to avoid that, and I don't think the legality of
executing people for "immoral" behavior validates the practice.

So-called honour killings have occurred in the UK.

The US as well; the difference is that in the West, such is illegal.

MORALITY IS NOT A UNIVERSALLY AGREED CODE

I thought it was obvious we agreed on that point.

well you could but I'm not going to agree with you.

I wasn't making that claim, just saying that one _could_.

we'll have to agree to differ. Fortuately my country is not yet a
theocracy and a minority of religious people are not able to impose
their ideas of morality on others.

You don't mention which country you're from, but I seriously doubt it
doesn't have a single law enforcing some bit of religion-based morality.

you'll have grabbed the idea by now that I don't agree. Some morality
is fixed much of it is simply an arbitary social code that varies from
place to place.

Still, if one believes an act is immoral, one cannot "justify" doing it
anyway. If one doesn't believe an act is immoral, there is no need for
justification.

S

 

[Chris H]

In message <[email protected]

yes... Not the cleverest of ideas that one. I was more thinking of
things like the the various religious wars that tore Europe apart.
Hopefully christian sects won't be fighting each other in the west in
the near future.

Well there is no need by the time the courts have finished prosecuting
the child abusers in the RC church. Looks like the Pope is likely to be
indicted.

are they the ones who turn up a soldiers funerals and claim its some
sort of punishment for homosexulaity? Or is that another buch of
crazies?

It's that bunch of nutters... Even their fellow Christians have disowned
them (as have some of the pastors own family)

Again I didn't say there were no christian crazies but that they were
on a lower level and smaller scale. Northern Ireland anyone?

Quite... That is the long running Protestant/Catholic fight intertwined
with a political/nationalist fight. A real mess which seems to be
restarting again.

because its fun. Protestants don't like fun.

It is also why the renacciance was late getting into England.

 

[Stephen Sprunk]

this variability seems to be fairly minor, from what I have seen,

The difference being executed for an offense or merely being frowned at
doesn't seem particularly minor to me.

and typically there is much more variation within a society than
between them...

The evidence seems to be to the contrary.

there is not enough information to draw a determination...

Plenty of people do anyway, based on what (they think) their particular
religious book (or other source of morality) says.

Paul wrote about it in the NT.

What relevance does that have to the majority of humanity that is not
Christian?

differences in doctrinal interpretations are, typically, rarely a big deal.

They're a big deal when people start imprisoning or even murdering each
other over them.

And, of course, most people can't even agree _which_ doctrine is
relevant, much less how to interpret it.

not sufficiently.

you have only argued about peoples' opinions of what is and is not moral,
which is very different from the morality of an act itself...

peoples' opinions of something can be dead wrong, but it doesn't change the
matter of whatever is the case...

Even if one were to accept that there is an objective morality, it's
pretty obvious that we don't know what it is; in practice we're stuck
with whatever subjective morality our respective cultures choose to
believe in.

yes, but a teenager with some credit cards may try to argue the same thing.
it changes little.

God doesn't send me a statement every month or call me when I don't pay
my bills.

most US TV is a show of depravity...

By _your_ moral judgment perhaps; I see plenty of abject stupidity, but
not that much _I_ find immoral.

thus, the value of a child is likely greater than that of an older person,
... however, the exact weighting and evaluation is likely to depend on the
other factors involved, ...

IMHO, this is relevant when faced with a decision of which person to
_save_ when you can't save them all, e.g. on a sinking ship, but
murdering people is never moral, no matter what the objective assessment
of their relative "values" to society.

S

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

Those people were killed for being witches, not for having sex, and the

same would not be tolerated today in any Western country.

Witching? not tolerated in the West? what about the Wiccan subculture?

And, in Russia, you can see a page of cheap newspaper full of ads of "hereditary witch and sorceress, will restore your marriage and bring you the business success".

For me, this is a shame for the nation, but... looks like such "business" is profitable, so _there are believers in such a nonsense that some dark-haired fat and arrogant woman in her 50ies can bring you success in business by playing with pictured pieces of paper or such_.

Surely, this is obvious backlash from the Soviet nationalism, on the background of the weak (weakened by the Soviets) official religion.

More importantly, they typically only occurred when the girl got
pregnant, and it was the _man_, not the _woman_, who was under threat.

Absolutely so.

If there was a sex between an adult woman and an adolescent boy - then I have _very major_ doubts that the boy's father will threat the woman with the shotgun to marry his son

Moral (and also legal) attitude against sexual "adventures" is very much assymmetrical in gender, with women being _more required_ to keep chastity, and - on the other hand - more prone of being considered a passive victim (and thus the male partner - the active offender).

I have a strong feeling that in modern attitude against child molesters everything is also asymmetric - adult male+minor girl mean major sanctions for the male, while adult woman+minor boy - not so major sanctions for the woman (if any at all).

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

part of the problem is that the second or third generation goes

native. They want to wear jeans etc. This can be tolerated in males
but is much more of a basket of dynamite for the girls. Organisations
exist to help girls escape from such families. Things can go badly
wrong if they get found.

Hm... not so native.

They are both native + preserving their old family (sometimes neolithic) attitudes.

For instance, I'm absolutely sure that, if in the UK the native British boy will beat the local Malay boy on the street, then he will have _the whole Malay family with the elder brothers and probably father_ against him. And, if vice versa - the things usually do not work such a way.

This is just because Malays (not far from being neolithic) have much stronger sense of brother and family (related to vendetta etc), then long-ago-civilized Britons.

This is why skinheads appear: as Briton's response to Malay/Indian etc. family solidatiry in street fights, crime etc.

Also I'm absolutely sure (by comparing to Muslims on Russian Northern Caucausus) that, after one generation of jeans wearing, they will understand that Islam is by far better then jeans and the resurrected interest to Islam will arise. First as, say, Arabian writings under the car license plates and "classic Muslim wear" ads in the subway, then more and more.

 

[Maxim S. Shatskih]

yes... Not the cleverest of ideas that one. I was more thinking of

things like the the various religious wars that tore Europe apart.
Hopefully christian sects won't be fighting each other in the west in
the near future.

I'm absolutely sure of it, since IMHO the end of such wars is due to _establishing the modern notion of the sovereign state_ at Westphalen Treaty of 1648.

It raised the notion of sovereignity to be very high, by far higher then any religion.

because its fun. Protestants don't like fun.

"Jesus never smiled". See " The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco.

BTW - RC and Orthodox churches never denied fun, there are even some special holiday weeks (usually just before the long fast in the spring) when fun is allowed by the church.

Looks like Protestants do not have ones.