J
Jenn
Lewis said:
I do believe what I want.. thanks ... I'm also entitled to be treated like a
lady.
I do believe what I want.. thanks ... I'm also entitled to be treated like a
lady.
J
Jenn
Lewis said:
well.. feel free to pop on over to Scorched-Earth and inquire as to whether
I am or not. I've video chatted with several people there and they can
confirm it.
A
Adrienne Boswell
Jenn, the validator is your friend. It was written by the W3C, the
folks who make up the standards the rest of us keep going on about.
True, validation is not the be all to end all, but when something
doesn't work right, the first place to check is with the validator.
Having a well marked up document makes it easier for everyone, search
engines and assistive technologies. Tables, unless they are used for
tabular data, can be prolematic for asssistive technologies, as they
often do not read the content in the way a visual person would perceive
it. Have a look at section 508 of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Should you ever have client who must abide by those rules (eg.
government, some non-profits, etc.), you, as the designer, would be held
responsible.
Having your documents validate to standards shows others that you, as a
professional, take pride in your work.
People here have said that there are problems with your sites. The site
that uses iframes is particularly troublesome, especially for users who
might have their font size bumped up. The first thing they might see is
a mess. That is something I would fix right away.
Someone else pointed out a site that was showing a PHP server error - if
you don't have access to the code, you need to let someone know about
it. A server side error showing on the client is a "come hither" flag
for every malicious hacker out there. If the server gets hacked, and it
can be determined that you knew about it, and did not tell anyone, you
could be held responsible - and sued. You have kids, you can't afford a
law suit.
D
dorayme
"Jonathan N. Little said:
Yes. But you are not really *over-the-top horrible and
vindictive* about it. But that I would expect from you.
Sure. But her offerings were not put up for quite such forensic
examinations. You misunderstand the situation and are helping
steering it all into something that would be better avoided for
now. Jenn is right about you charging bulls!
Analogy: some evidence lead in court can be very true but
nevertheless thrown out by the court as inadmissible or
irrelevant. Picking over her sites forensically right now is
ridiculous.
A
Adrienne Boswell
I agree with you, and hope that Jenn will get something out of this.
Jenn, consider yourself lucky, it could have been Jukka.
D
dorayme
"Jonathan N. Little said:
I see something else and do not share the view that the refusal
is absolute. Look, I understand you have had kids. Did you not
ever experience giving a bit of sensible advice only to find that
it was rejected on the surface but slowly slowly the natural good
sense of the kids come around to it in their own time? Sometimes,
you need to give these things a bit of time to be absorbed and
sometimes a gentler approach is needed in discussion with some
people (not only ladies but especially with ladies - they tend to
have fine sensibilities, thank God!).
D
dorayme
Sherm Pendley said:
You are machine sherm, a pure machine! What the hell could you
know outside of 1s and 0s and their many hexadecimal
transformations. <g>
D
dorayme
I think rf was pointing to the way designers do not realise howBen C said:
boxes they make that appear in one position on a page at a
certain resolution and text size setting can do unexpected things
at other text size settings, causing text to visually disappear
because heights are constrained or for other reasons to do with
what is designed around them. Or, as you say, forcing users to
use horizontal scrollbars. rf and Chris J and others are always
posting jpgs of what website makers would not be expecting.
D
dorayme
Sherm Pendley said:
Jenn is not a liar on your evidence. Her idea of pro is not so
bad, she makes sites for paid work and not for mere pleasure. Her
many websites are paid ones and likely useful to *a big bunch of
people* and this does not change from fact to fiction just
because the work could be better or accord more strictly to
certain standards.
D
dorayme
freemont said:
How prescient you were earlier:
"Just please, for the love of Pete, don't start this old debate
up again. Odds are that it'll end up with someone calling someone
else stupid, someone will call somebody a troll, and after a
bunch of pedantic horseshit arguments over semantics spread over
several days, no-one's opinion will have been swayed one bit.
Best to drop it.
"But then, it is easy to make some predictions come true, all you
have to do is slip in a later totally uncalled for, totally
ungentlemanly:
"Thick... as a brick. Wow."
against her and you get to collect on a bet. You weren't involved
in the Fine Cotton racing scandal in Australia were you?
J
Jenn
Lewis said:
fyi ... I post from more than one computer
D
dorayme
"Jenn said:
Good point. Perhaps I can add that sexless ETs have the edge in
website work. We can cunningly appeal to different human
inclinations without bringing in our own biases. And we can't be
bribed with stuff like chocolates, flowers, nylons, tickets to
the boxing match, some great after-shave, humans simply don't
know what to give us. <g>
J
Jenn
freemont said:
<sigh> I did not change anything .. I have multiple computers, Mr. potty
mouth ... they each are set up with E-T ngs. I set them up at different
times and I believe one has my bbs in the sigtag and this pc doesn't.
You're really a very crude and nasty person.
J
Jenn
Lewis said:
You should really try using a dictionary. I have brought up gender
differences... and said nothing about genitals. You on the other hand seem
to have issues with both.
R
rf
dorayme said:
Indeed. And it's not just stuff getting out of, or disapearing into the
borders of, fixed size boxes. Or even scrollbars.
Pick a site at random. Let's try http://au.yahoo.com shall we, using, say,
Firefox.
Bump up the font size even one click and admire the Y that appears on the
new headlines. Bump it up again and several more Y's appear. And the text in
the news and features box goes, sort of, odd. Another notch and things get
real ugly.
This is, supposedly, a high ranking site but the drezigners of that site
know bugger all about accessibility.
One would think that presenting a jpg of something that is severely broken
would be enough to cause a flurry of fixing and a big thanks to the
informant. But not, it seems, for the people in Oklahoma
Now, just for completeness:
http://barefile.com.au/screenshot/yahoo.jpg
D
dorayme
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty said:
Most usenet groups are infested with folk out to batter others.
In these toxic brews, a self-respecting gal from Oklahoma can be
expected to clash a bit. It does not mean what you think.
(If anyone finds my remarks useful for their lives, please send a
small donation, think of it as you would when the plate comes
around in church. Which reminds me of how the different religions
divvy up the takings between themselves and their churches:
A Catholic priest, an Anglican parson and a rabbi
were discussing how they divided the money that
they collected between the poor of their parish
(God's share), and themselves.
The priest said: "I draw a square on the ground,
throw the money into the air and what lands in the
square is mine; the rest is God's share."
The parson said: "I draw a circle on the ground,
throw the money in the air and what lands inside
the circle is mine; the rest is for the poor."
The rabbi said: "I throw all the
money in the air and what God wants, he keeps.
Anything that falls to the ground, I keep."
)
J
Jonathan N. Little
dorayme said:
You bet'cha
Yes, but children have the excuse that they are children and don't know
any better. Learning is part of growing up, and growing up is learning
to recognize what is useful and true even is it conflicts with presently
held views.
Sorry, I was always under the impression that to be a professional one
had to actually know one's craft. Also that that knowledge was not
static, especially where technology is involved. Everyone's ire rose
when she make proclamation that validation was irrelevant, CSS was of
little use, and tables are the gold-standard for proper web design
layout. Instead of supporting her assertions her examples proved the
opposite. When the fragility of her designs and deficiency of her code
was revealed, (in some cases where the page did not even work in non-IE
browsers), she cried foul of sexual harassment!
Pleeeeease, I can speak for myself I don't give a rats if she was male,
female, martian or whatever you are. Ask Mason, or Luigi! Jukka can bunt
to the point of brutal, but he is usually correct and I have learn a lot
from him. So buck it up Jenn! Stop being such a victim and consider that
the criticism just might be justified. If you approach has not changed
in 10 years that *is* a problem. Try and view your work with a different
browser, a with different default font size, a different system. And
recognize when your page fails in one of them it is a problem and your
fault. If it looses sales for your clients then that is no LOL.
D
dorayme
Ben C said:
Male and female sensibilities in design work is a rather
fascinating matter actually.
I can quite believe Jenn can tell (with a suitable margin of
error that still leaves the skill of being able to tell an
undoubted better than chance one). But it might be pretty hard to
*say* how this is done. Chicken sexers get to know how to tell
sex of newborn chicks with great accuracy without being able to
say quite what they are going on. The chickens just look
different to them!
J
Jenn
Adrienne said:
I've never used a validator in the 14 yrs I've been making websites.
Occasionally, I have seen a person here or there talk about them, but only
here have I heard of any necessity of using them. How many people post here
on average? If it is such a necessity, why have I not heard of it being so
important until 14 yrs after the fact? I'm not saying it doesn't exist...
I'm saying in the 14 yrs I've been doing this no one has cared to inquire if
a site validated with W3C.
I know you are convinced of what you are saying, but it's not going to stop
me from using tables because I like the control they afford when building
content. It's a basic technique that works even when other techniques
consume time just trying to figure them out.
No one I know of cares about the code... all they care about is what they
see and if it works or not and is completed by it's due date.
Make no mistake.. I take pride in my work, and I work very hard to give my
clients what they ask for... I've spent many long hours studying on my own
and playing with code just for the sake of practicing it. I even took one
summer to learn vb and vb.net and write my own desktop program just to see
if I could do it. Next, I studied about 6 months to learn Visual Studio
and T-sql so I could build databases. I already was familiar with that
somewhat because the backend of Access uses a similar language and interface
as sql (but my Access version was older than the Visual Studio that I
studied.) I learned all of this in books and countless tutorials, I did it
all on my own. I worked hard for years when my kids were growing up, and
learned a skill that I could earn a decent wage at, and I have been
successful. I couldn't go to school because I was the teacher, mother, and
whatever else my family needed when we were raising our kids and
homeschooling them - 3 of them - I homeschooled for approx. 19 yrs total.
When I was hired for my first "real" job I finally made enough money to buy
groceries on a regular basis and buy clothes for my kids at Walmart instead
of buying second hand clothing for them all the time. I had that part-time
job for like 4 yrs. Do you know what it is like to finally be able to tell
your child... "Yes you can have that brand new dress or pair of shorts?"
When I got my present job I was so happy that I would cry every day on the
way to work because I was so greatful to have it. You have no idea what it
really means to have pride in your work until you've spent a lifetime
studying by yourself in hopes that some day you will be able to earn a
living.
Some of you people here (not necessarily you Adrienne[this post is actually
one of the nicer posts I've seen so far) seem to be so happy to put me down
and get your digs in because I haven't done it like you would do it... my
code isn't what you think it should be... an inanimate thing seems to have
more value than a human being has to some of you...... but until you've
walked a mile in my shoes, I have to wonder how you could be so cruel and
mean to someone you don't know in the name of code?
R
rf
dorayme said:
A big hint might have been the fact that three of the four sites Beauregard
presented are about very big motorcycles.