Re: I have a problem with this:

[Jenn]

I am protecting the reputation I have with myself. I don't know
about you, but I like to sleep nights. I know you drink a lot of
strong coffee.


I can be as vicious as anything on earth, please do not question


No, it is not.



Patience. There have been some acknowledgements actually.
Patience Ed, patience.



For Christ's sake, she has done far too much offering of her
websites. Be kind and steer the conversations to interesting
subjects in website work and leave off all this negative personal
stuff. It is not always a good idea to keep pushing hard on
something.

Go out and gather some nuts and fruit as an exercise, leave off
hunting for a while, it is getting you too excited and upset.
Tell your wife to email me and I will instruct her how to hide
fruit and nuts in your backyard somewhere and how to ensure you
spend at least 8 hours a day for a while gathering. I will send
her forms to fill in to monitor your progress. <g>

dorayme ... thank you.

 

[Jenn]

If there is anyone here who exhibits bully tendencies, it is you.

Hardly .... I am defending myself.

 

[Jenn]

No, you're not "entitled" to anything.

Yes,, I am... perhaps you need to do some research on how to treat women
like ladies? Google will be your friend in this case.

Dream on.

All of my dreams have come true thus far, and I imagine more will come true
in the future. I am amazed sometimes how God can hear the small unspoken
hopes and dreams in my heart and make them come true in such a way that
there is no doubt that it was God who made it happen. He can even use your
small comment to *dream on* (which you meant to be insulting) ... he can use
those two words to remind me of what he has done for me.

 

[Jenn]

You said:

answered and clarified elsewhere ....

 

[Jenn]

--
THERE'S JUST ME, said Death. THE FINAL FRONTIER. --Moving Pictures


Your sigtag on this post says alot about you...

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

I've never used a validator in the 14 yrs I've been making websites.
Occasionally, I have seen a person here or there talk about them, but
only here have I heard of any necessity of using them. How many people
post here on average? If it is such a necessity, why have I not heard
of it being so important until 14 yrs after the fact? I'm not saying
it doesn't exist... I'm saying in the 14 yrs I've been doing this no
one has cared to inquire if a site validated with W3C.

I've been doing this for 13 years, and the first time I posted to a
Usenet group (not this one) with a problem, I was directed to validate,
and then come back. Once I figured out what the validator was
complaining about, I fixed the problems and was happy to receive
Congradulations from the validator "To show your readers that you have
taken the care to create an interoperable Web page...". That was
probably about 13 years ago, as the crow flys.

Perhaps you should read this:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you

I know you are convinced of what you are saying, but it's not going to
stop me from using tables because I like the control they afford when
building content. It's a basic technique that works even when other
techniques consume time just trying to figure them out.

It's not a matter of being convinced, it's a matter of law.
[http://tinyurl.com/3ytaws9] (notice a lot of those sites are government
sites)
and
[http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=12#Web]

No one I know of cares about the code... all they care about is what
they see and if it works or not and is completed by it's due date.

YOU should care about the code. It's known as taking pride in what you
do. It's knowing that it was a job well done.

Make no mistake.. I take pride in my work, and I work very hard to
give my clients what they ask for...

Your clients ASK for pages that take a long time to load, and when they
do, jump all over the place, or worse, have server side errors on them?

I've spent many long hours
studying on my own and playing with code just for the sake of
practicing it. I even took one summer to learn vb and vb.net and
write my own desktop program just to see if I could do it. Next, I
studied about 6 months to learn Visual Studio and T-sql so I could
build databases.

And I'll bet you have no problem using dynamic queries either. Please
read up on SQL Injection, be scared - very scared, and then find out the
best practices you can use to prevent it.

I already was familiar with that somewhat because the
backend of Access uses a similar language and interface as sql (but my
Access version was older than the Visual Studio that I studied.) I
learned all of this in books and countless tutorials, I did it all on
my own. I worked hard for years when my kids were growing up, and
learned a skill that I could earn a decent wage at, and I have been
successful. I couldn't go to school because I was the teacher,
mother, and whatever else my family needed when we were raising our
kids and homeschooling them - 3 of them - I homeschooled for approx.
19 yrs total.

That's great that you were able to homeschool your children. I have a
part time job that I go to four days a week, I take my six year old to
school, pick him up from school, take him to the park, come home, fix
dinner, help with homework, read stories, say prayers, kiss good night,
turn on the hall light - and then I go to my computer and start doing
freelance work. I usually stop over here, too, just to get the latest
buzz.

When I was hired for my first "real" job I finally made
enough money to buy groceries on a regular basis and buy clothes for
my kids at Walmart instead of buying second hand clothing for them all
the time. I had that part-time job for like 4 yrs. Do you know what
it is like to finally be able to tell your child... "Yes you can have
that brand new dress or pair of shorts?" When I got my present job I
was so happy that I would cry every day on the way to work because I
was so greatful to have it. You have no idea what it really means to
have pride in your work until you've spent a lifetime studying by
yourself in hopes that some day you will be able to earn a living.

I was working full time as a developer for the first four years of my
son's life. I made good money, and provided a good home for my son.
When he went into Kindergarten, I decided that I should cut my hours so
that I could be as much of a stay at home Mom as I could. Money is
tight, but it's more important that I spend as much time with my son as
I can. I'm a 53 year old single mother, so I'm the only one he has.

Some of you people here (not necessarily you Adrienne[this post is
actually one of the nicer posts I've seen so far) seem to be so happy
to put me down and get your digs in because I haven't done it like you
would do it... my code isn't what you think it should be... an
inanimate thing seems to have more value than a human being has to
some of you...... but until you've walked a mile in my shoes, I have
to wonder how you could be so cruel and mean to someone you don't know
in the name of code?

In the beginning of this thread, people were helpful to you by pointing
out issues with your old sites. You did not seem to want to take their
advice. Understand that none of us are being paid for doing this, we
take a little time out of our day here trying to help others.
Sometimes, things get heated.

I have walked a mile in your shoes, actually, I walk a half a mile up a
steep hill to get to work. I test my work in several browsers, and you
can bet your bottom dollar that I validate.

I wish you well in your endeavors, and I hope that you take some of the
well intentioned advice here to heart.

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

I don't know who Jukka is, and I really don't care.

Stick around, you'll find out.

What do you think
I should GET out of this fiasco... HUH? I'll tell you what I've
gotten so far.. the realization that there may not be anyone here who
loves what I do like I do.

You like to build broken sites. Okay, if it's just for you, on your
computer -- not for the www.

Some of you must have pretty empty lives
if all you can see in what I do is code that needs to be fixed.

If you go to the ladies room and get toilet paper stuck to the back of
your dress, are you going to be offended when I point it out, or you
going to say, "Gee, thanks!"

I
have a very real passion and a gift for what I've been doing over the
past 14 yrs. Maybe you guys just aren't the right people to be
around.

HAND

 

[dorayme]

So why does it take patience? You just pull them off the tree whenever
you feel like it.

Going around digging for roots and gathering fruit and collecting
it is a slow patient long running daily activity that female
human ancestors did. It was slow and a bit boring, choreful.
There was no adrenalin rush (imagine getting excited at the
grabbing of a root or the imminent prospect of it). What patience
was shown was not for the sake of ensuring that what was being
gathered was not alerted. There is an even steadiness. A kalm
holiness to it all.

You have to be very patient. You have to follow its footprints carefully
all day looking for subtle clues then when you finally find catch up
with it, wait very quietly until it's looking the other way, then bam,
get it with the spear.

Yes, sure. But I was concentrating on the going in for the kill
bit where patience is the very opposite of what is needed. Where
the victim is easy to find, where it is a sitting duck so to
speak, patience is not required and it is this final bit of the
ancestral memory that is powering the actions of the gang that is
is trying to tear apart a poor Oklahoma mum that wandered in
looking for some friendly communications about website making.

In Taxi Driver, Robert De Niro tried to bring his explosive
feelings out in the open a bit to a fellow driver. This driver
took him aside and talked absolute horse-shit and De Niro was
quite nice about it but told him as much. How do I really know
why all these guys are being so over the top insulting to Jenn?

Since the things that are provocative could not possibly explain
the sort of straight out abuse we are seeing, I am trying my best
with snippets of wild causal theories going back millions of
years. <g>

 

[freemont]

<sigh> I did not change anything .. I have multiple computers, Mr.
potty mouth ... they each are set up with E-T ngs. I set them up at
different times and I believe one has my bbs in the sigtag and this pc
doesn't.

Why change computers as soon as a couple of us plonk you? Just piss off.

You're really a very crude and nasty person.

You don't know the half of it. I'd suggest you read the archives and
notice that if I've been "crude" to anyone, it's been ONLY to you. Hint.
But we all know you don't read or do homework, so forget it.

Now this email gets thrown out the back door into the dumbass bucket for
30 days. I shouldn't see any more of your bullshit for a while. Or let me
guess - you sometimes post from a *third* computer...

*PLONK*

 

[freemont]

How prescient you were earlier:

Yup. I was right on the money. She should have listened.

But then, it is easy to make some predictions come true, all you have to
do is slip in a later totally uncalled for, totally ungentlemanly:

"Thick... as a brick. Wow."

Oh, come on. I said that LONG after she'd established the fact that her
head is like marble. And look at what that was in response to. She
actually chastised someone for suggesting that she would urinate onto a
girl scout campfire. If that was an attempt at humor, it was far too
subtle, far too little and too late.

Hey, you can play with her all you like. I've had enough. Maybe if she's
still around in a month, things will have changed some. <shrug>

 

[dorayme]

Yup. I was right on the money. She should have listened.


Oh, come on. I said that LONG after she'd established the fact that her
head is like marble.

If she had really established that, there was no real point in
your really rude and ungentlemanly remark.

I am surprised at all this talk of pride in being professional
web developers blah blah blah that is going on when the one thing
that has to trump this is taking pride in being *gentlemen* or at
least good human beings.

Can't you see how all this over the top baiting and direct crude
railings should be beneath you? Nothing Jenn has said or done
could possibly justify the level of vituperation. Why make out
like an early man when you, unlike him, have the benefit of
Aristotle's teachings?

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Hardly .... I am defending myself.

In all the many years I have been reading and participating in these
web-authoring newsgroups, you are the *first* person I know of who:
- has absolutely refused any and all advice
- hides behind the words "professional" and "makes money"
- refuses to fix broken sites or acknowledge they should be
- hides behind her *skirts* and *I'm a lady*
- accuses all men of being abusive to all women

I suppose I should add an obligatory
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

 

[rf]

In all the many years I have been reading and participating in these
web-authoring newsgroups, you are the *first* person I know of who:
- has absolutely refused any and all advice
- hides behind the words "professional" and "makes money"
- refuses to fix broken sites or acknowledge they should be
- hides behind her *skirts* and *I'm a lady*
- accuses all men of being abusive to all women

- does not know that a site full of pictures of motorcyles is a site
about motorcycles.

I fixed your post for you Beauregard

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

In all the many years I have been reading and participating in these
web-authoring newsgroups, [Jenn] are the *first* person I know of who:
- has absolutely refused any and all advice
- hides behind the words "professional" and "makes money"
- refuses to fix broken sites or acknowledge they should be
- hides behind her *skirts* and *I'm a lady*
- accuses all men of being abusive to all women

- does not know that a site full of pictures of motorcyles is a site
about motorcycles.

I fixed your post for you Beauregard

Thank you, rf. It's so *male*, you know... (although my wife, who also
rides, might disagree <g>)

 

[Jenn]

Jenn wrote:

In all the many years I have been reading and participating in these
web-authoring newsgroups, you are the *first* person I know of who:

In the many years I have been online and on ngs, I have never been a woman
who follows the crowd. I am an individual who will not be bullied, coerced,
or harassed by anyone to conform simply because someone else tells me to do
so.

- has absolutely refused any and all advice
- hides behind the words "professional" and "makes money"
- refuses to fix broken sites or acknowledge they should be
- hides behind her *skirts* and *I'm a lady*
- accuses all men of being abusive to all women

I suppose I should add an obligatory
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

1. I didn't ask for anyone's advice on the links I offered for viewing
2. I am a professional who is paid
3. No need to fix old sites that are for example purposes... I will check to
see whats up with the shopping cart errors when I get the time.
4. I expect to be treated like a lady because I am a lady.. that is not too
much to ask or expect from people who consider themselves to be
professionals.
5. All men aren't abusive, but some of you men here are being abusive to me.
6. I "LOL" because I am happy when I post "LOL".. I am generally a fairly
contented lady and happy with my life a majority of the time (barring the
normal frustrations and issues that happen to everyone on occasion.)

 

[Jenn]

On 2010-05-05, Jenn <[email protected]> wrote:

The reasons to validate are a bit nuanced. It's not that it's strictly
necessary (as you've found) but it is worth doing.

The problem is that the requirements of HTML validity are much stricter
than the requirements of any modern browser.

Yes... Browsers don't really seem to care so much. I currently am required
to test in 2 browsers... IE 7 & 8, and Firefox. I usually have no issues
with pages working in IE..(except for when IE6 was the current version... it
had some irritating issues). The top 5 browsers now are IE8, Firefox, IE7,
IE6, and Mozilla, with Safari coming in 6th. There are at least 50 browsers
that could be said to have some sort of a decent user status, tho. There's
no way to know if all those browsers are going to render perfectly, so
management just requires at least those top 5.

The alt text is for accessibility, which is a good goal (if we're going
to treat ladies from the Deep South who laugh a lot equally then we
should also treat the partially-sighted equally

Funny about your comment about ladies from the Deep South... My mommas
family is from Alabama, and I spent many years there growing up before I
eventually moved to Tulsa... but I wasn't born there, either, although it
had the most influence on me since I spent my youth, teen, and young adult
years there. Even though I haven't lived there since '84, I find at times my
southern drawl gets a bit thick on occasion, still.

Depending on the image and what it's application to the site is for... I
will generally use the Alt text unless there is no need for it, and there
are situations where it isn't needed.

The div is there because you aren't supposed to put something that's
"inline" inside body. No browser cares about that partly because CSS
rules define precisely how to render it, assuming you just generate a
tree of nodes in the obvious way.

I work with a site that is built by a committee, you could say... I'm
guessing they used Visual Studio to make the template along with the style
sheets...(multiple style sheets with hundreds of lines of code on each one.)
The site is comprised of .config files, aspx, ascx, default, html files, and
even includes, and several other types of files that consist of server code
that has to talk to individual files... there really isn't any way to
validate. It's an interesting exercise in creative use of code on some days
to create pages that do what management wants done... but I really love what
I do and have gained alot of knowledge and experience in the last 4 years.

There's an awful lot of stuff like that which has no effect at all on
rendering, which just leaves you with recherche arguments about
"semantic purity", or theoretical arguments that it might not render
properly because it's not correct (which might carry more weight if
browsers actually rendered correct stuff reliably).

There are also important nesting errors you need to know about
especially where things like forms are concerned.

I generally use aspx forms that use server code... although I will do an
occasional general html form for simple things.

If you don't mind the accessibility and search engine problems, then use
tables for layout. Most of what you can do with anything else you can
also do with tables, and there are some things you can only do with
tables.

We don't get any complaints, and since I've been where I'm at, we've doubled
our market share, and increased views and time spent dramatically....
February usually takes a dip in the stats, but its short a few days, and the
summer time has its lull days, too.

But if you do that, keep it simple. Avoid colspan and percentage widths
on things or you get into the grey areas that aren't specified and where
different browsers do different things.

Don't think I've used colspan with a % before... at least in the last 4
years I know I haven't.

In the more recent browsers you can just use display: table and friends
and so get the best of both worlds-- tables for layout but without the
accessibility or search engine problems.

On the other hand if you keep your layouts fairly simple (and I think
those layouts look best anyway) it's actually more bother to use tables.

Not for me ... I love building tables... the more complicated they are, the
more of a challenge... the more fun I find them to be.

Thanks for the nice response, Ben. I hope to chat with you more in the
future.

 

[Jenn]

That is probably wise, I was just thinking I hope Jenn does not
try answering quickly because it would be *a very hard question
to answer*.

I better make it clear that I am certain the question was genuine
curiosity considering who it came from. I suspect it would defy
or at least resist words and simple patterns. There is probably a
literature on this somewhere.

You're right ... it is hard to put into words. It is kind of like walking
into someones apartment or home without knowing who lives there and being
able to know if it is just a mans apartment, a womans apartment, a couples
apartmen, or even a home of a family. Not all websites are built in such a
way as to tell the gender of the designer or webmaster, but some are, and
that's what I see. Make sense, dorayme?

 

[Jenn]

In message <[email protected]>



You think you are because you are a sexist pig living in some delusional
past where women were considered so frail and weak someone else had to
do all their thinking for them. You feel entitled to special treatment
because you consider yourself to be frail and weak and emotionally
unstable.

I'm by no means weak or frail physically or emotionally. I am a woman who
believes men should treat women as ladies, and men should behave as
gentlemen around a lady, and that is what I expect if any men care to
converse with me, otherwise I will put you in your proper place very
quickly. It is common manners.

People with normal and healthy self-images want to be treated equally,
based on who they are, and not on some delusion that they need some
special allowances made for them.

This lady has a healthy self-image and has no problem giving nasty and mean
posters a cyber black-eye when they attempt to take a pound of flesh in the
name of inanimate code. I have the confidence and stictuitiveness to
outlast you in any discussion you could muster and I would win and never
utter one swear word, so you can either killfile me or accept me as I am for
who I am. I'm not here to become anyones object to beat down or curse at.

 

[Jenn]

Sexist pig.

On the contrary... I recognize that there are very real differences in
comparing the genders.

 

[Jenn]

Why change computers as soon as a couple of us plonk you? Just piss off.

The computers are in 2 locations, and I commute between them on a daily
basis.

You don't know the half of it. I'd suggest you read the archives and
notice that if I've been "crude" to anyone, it's been ONLY to you. Hint.
But we all know you don't read or do homework, so forget it.

I have no interest in you, so I can assure you I won't research anything
about you.

Now this email gets thrown out the back door into the dumbass bucket for
30 days. I shouldn't see any more of your bullshit for a while. Or let me
guess - you sometimes post from a *third* computer...

*PLONK*

WONDERFUL!! Now it will be more peaceful here to chat with the nicer
posters.